I made a few mistakes (SB KQo w/ limpers)

King Spew · #1 09-11-2006, 01:28 PM

Very first orbit at a new site to me.
I've been working on being less aggressive OOP with medium hands and thought this might qualify as a time to limp behind PF.

PokerRoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP1 ($16.45)
MP2 ($25.00)
CO ($21.40)
Button ($40.95)
Hero ($19.50)
BB ($19.35)
UTG ($10.80)
UTG+1 ($13.25)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.25, 2 folds, MP2 checks, CO calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25, Hero completes, BB checks.
Seeing the flop, a raise PF would have folded out my only real competition. However, without being results oriented here, is KQo still too strong to limp? I usually cook some weak sauce when OOP but... ???

Flop: ($2) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $0.25, UTG folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, Hero calls $0.25.
In hindsight, I REALLY screwed this one up. I could lie and tell you I was 8 tabling but alas, this was my only table open at the time. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] After all the other folds, I've got to raise pot-sized. Got to. Grrrrrrr. 

Turn: ($2.50) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $0.5, Hero bets $2.5, BB bets $18.85 (All-In) Hero???

Ok, my quandry. If I move my c/r to the flop and still get pushed in over the top, do I call???

Jamougha · #2 09-11-2006, 01:41 PM

pf/flop are fine. Lead the turn. As played you have a rly easy fold.

ColdSteel · #3 09-11-2006, 01:45 PM

PF, raising is OK, but I'll just complete normally here. On the button I'd raise every time. But here you're OOP and going to get called by hands that are better than yours (A-rag, 77, etc). If you had position it wouldn't be a problem. You don't, and I complete.

Flop either lead for the pot or check-raise for the pot. You were trying to not lose any customers, but you're hand isn't the nuts.

Turn is played OK given the way you played PF & Flop, and I
fold to the all-in. AK raises PF.

wslee00 · #4 09-11-2006, 02:27 PM

looks good so far - now fold.

terencetsao · #5 09-11-2006, 02:31 PM

that looks like a easy fold to me, you have to put your opponent on a 4. Another thing you can do is try to call on the turn.. and see what goes on the river.

delta k · #6 09-11-2006, 03:05 PM

if you had c/r the flop and got reraised or pushed i get out, it's a small unraised pot and BB has a 4 there like always.

aces_full · #7 09-11-2006, 03:08 PM

Why do you think you need to raise the flop here? What are you trying to acomplish with this? IMO this is clearly a way ahead/way behind scenario. Villain is either:Holding a king with a lower kicker, holding AK, holding a 4, or bluffing. In theory, if you raise here you are allowing villain to play correctly against you. Obviously he folds a complete bluff, but you will also sometimes force a weaker king to fold. Do you really want the second best hand to fold? Of course not. If villain has a hand like K6o he's only got three outs to outdraw you-your hand simply does not need protection and there are zero draws on this flop.

I suppose you could make the argument that this is SSNL after all, and if you raise K6o is NOT going to fold and you are missing out on value. True, but remember you are OOP and raising builds the pot on a scary flop when all you hold is TP/GK. Lets say you C/R to $2.75 and villain just calls. The turn pot is $8 and it's on you to act, now what? You caught what could be your sucker card, and if you were behind the whole way, you are fixing to lose a lot of money.

On the turn I might lead, but I can also see a case for check/call the turn and river, or maybe lead river/fold to raise (depending on opponent). It's very unlikely the Qh helps villain because I can't see him having a backdoor flush draw unless he's got KXh, and I certainly don't see him having JT.

Keep the pot small. Aggression wins the money, but it doesn't mean that slowing down and simply calling some of the time isn't the right way to go. Remember-selective aggression.

If villain does indeed have a 4, he thinks his leading you on with weak bets is being tricky, but really he is doing you a favor (and screwing himself) by leaving his hand vulnerable and failing to extract maximum value.

I also like check/calling the turn because I think it is often better to check and call with a hand that has outs and better to bet/raise with hands that have little or no chance of improving if behind. Villain is offering you 6:1 pot odds on your turn call. If you are behind, the odds of you filling in on the river are 10.5:1-so on the surface it seems like a bad call, but you also have to figure your hand is good here at least 10% of the time, and also some of the time when you do hit a K or Q on the river, a 4 will pay you off a little more.

jskinn04 · #8 09-11-2006, 03:15 PM

I'd c/c flop and turn, bet/fold river. Flop is dry and only aces suck as scare cards. On the turn, he either has a king that you beat or he has a 4. c/r reps a 4. He'll fold a weaker king to a turn c/r because he might face a large bet on the river. So c/c turn, lead river.

I guess in this hand a 4 never folds and will make some money for you, but my goal would be to earn an extra bet on the river off of Kx or mid PP's.