NL25, advice needed on how to play flush draws

akkahai · #1 09-08-2006, 05:50 PM

I've had some trouble playing flush draws. I'm posting two hands here, where I played a flush draw with different styles. I had actually positive results, but I'm trying not to be results oriented, so I want to know if I played these hands in a +EV way.

Hand 1, heads up, aggressive approach

In this hand, I had QJs on the button, and BB reraised me. No reads on the opponent, I just joined the table. On the flop I catch a flush draw but nothing else. I decided to try the "push" style here. How good draw do I actually need here to do this? Also, is it better to just push all in instead of a smaller raise? I feel like I'm telling him exactly what I have if I push here and it will be even easier to call.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($58.25)
UTG+1 ($3.02)
UTG+2 ($23.75)
MP1 ($14.65)
MP2 ($20.45)
MP3 ($29.72)
CO ($3.75)
Hero ($22.99)
SB ($10.55)
BB ($26.10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
7 folds, Hero raises to $1, 1 fold, BB raises to $2.75, Hero calls $2.

Flop: ($6.10) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets $4, Hero raises to $15

Hand 2: multiway pot, "passive" approach

In this hand I actually had a pretty good draw, I had a pair AND a flush draw. So I decided to bet the flop, but when they played back at me, I just called because I was getting good odds to call. Correct?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP2 ($13.46)
MP3 ($30.80)
CO ($24.65)
Button ($23.25)
SB ($36.65)
Hero ($25.10)
UTG ($13.96)
UTG+1 ($26.15)
MP1 ($24.20)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.25, 2 folds, Button calls $0.25, SB (poster) completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($1) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.95, MP2 raises to $1.9, Button folds, SB calls $1.90, Hero calls $0.95.

Turn: ($6.70) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets $3, SB calls $3, Hero calls $3.

DanIsBluffin · #2 09-08-2006, 06:18 PM

Personally I think you got aggressive on the flop that might have been better suited for a call/float and passive on a flop that you need to be maximimising your FE by putting raises in.

Hand 1: I'd just call the $4. Bet if checked to on the turn.
Hand 2: Stick in a large 3bet on the flop to around $7. Get the rest in on the turn.

akkahai · #3 09-08-2006, 06:23 PM

OK, I understand the reason for raising hand 2. But can you explain why calling in hand 1 is a good move?

Dunkman · #4 09-08-2006, 06:24 PM

I agree, I would have just called on the first hand (you raised PF, disguising your hand, may look like a PP, more likely to get paid when it hits) and jack it up on the second hand since 1) you have great equity against 2 other players and 2) it may give you some additional outs against whoever sticks around.

DanIsBluffin · #5 09-08-2006, 06:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
OK, I understand the reason for raising hand 2. But can you explain why calling in hand 1 is a good move?

[/ QUOTE ]

He has 3bet you from the blinds, at NL25 this is a good sign that he's got QQ+/AK. He is going to want to felt this hand, so you've got great implied odds to stack him with your flush draw. By raising to $15 then you're likely to face an all-in. I think the fold equity you gain by raising here is outweighed by the implied odds that you lose by putting in most of your stack in on a draw.

To put it simply: he isn't going to fold enough for it to be worthwhile and you've stuck in most of your stack as an underdog.

InternetJunky · #6 09-08-2006, 06:29 PM

Hand 1: Your flop raise leaves villian with around $5 if he calls. In other words, push and maximize your fold equity.

[edit] I say push only in the context of the raise here. I don't think raising this is correct, and I'd likely peel one on the flop expecting to take a stack if the draw hits. Villian obviously likes his hand and you have little fold equity.

Hand 2: Not sure if it's correct, but I play the same way. With two other people in the pot a raise can bloat the pot and make things very ugly for you. You have a lot of outs to improve, good odds to call, and good implied odds that you'll get more money if your flush hits, another 6 comes, or you hit 2 pair.

Dunkman · #7 09-08-2006, 06:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
OK, I understand the reason for raising hand 2. But can you explain why calling in hand 1 is a good move?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I doubt the third diamond is gonna kill your action (see last post) so you can wait for it. It does suck in that if he bets the turn strong you're gonna have to fold. However, I'm not sure he's folding anything here he re-raises PF, maybe QQ or JJ, but you already have 1 of each of them.....I know it stinks, but if you think through it, you're most likely pushing in a little better than a 2:1 dog against someone who is very unlikely to fold. With no reads I'm not playing this draw this fast.

Shaddux · #8 09-08-2006, 06:34 PM

I dont like flop raise in hand 1. Hand 2 looks fine.

gimmetheloot · #9 09-08-2006, 06:35 PM

push villain AI on hand one...

hand two either is good, if he had made a good sized raise i 3 bet push though.

akkahai · #10 09-08-2006, 06:39 PM

Hand 1, let's say I call the flop bet. The pot will be $14.10 and there will be $16 left in my stack. How small must his bet be for me to call again on the turn, if the turn card doesn't make me a flush? I guess it is too late to bluffraise there.

And if he checks the turn, why bet then? Isn't it enough to get to see the river card?