This Is An Order

[David Sklansky]

It just occurred to me that some of the people who are getting involved in many of the debates on this forum are not totally familiar with the Prisoner's Dilemma and the Iterated Prisoner's Dilemma. That is unacceptable. Take a half an hour to familiarize yourself with both. The second is at least important as the first. In fact I'm wondering if Chez might not be aware of it given his comment that immoral people can't be trusted.

[guesswest]

SIR YES SIR!

[einbert]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dillema

Easy access link.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
It just occurred to me that some of the people who are getting involved in many of the debates on this forum are not totally familiar with the Prisoner's Dilemma and the Iterated Prisoner's Dilemma. That is unacceptable. Take a half an hour to familiarize yourself with both. The second is at least important as the first. In fact I'm wondering if Chez might not be aware of it given his comment that immoral people can't be trusted.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm familiar enough with it to know I'm talking about something different.

Worth a read though.


chez

[Utah]

That is all there is. There is no morality, good/evil, etc. All there is is games and optimal strategies.

humans as a whole dont engage is strategies that are not optimal. The combination of instincts/rational thought correlates to optimal strategy. How can the idea of morality exist in that environment?

We know that those employing weak strategies who go against opponents using optimal strategy get killed. In this case literally. We exist only because our ancestors used competitive strategies. Of course, it is not a zero sum game.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
That is all there is. There is no morality, good/evil, etc. All there is is games and optimal strategies.

[/ QUOTE ]
There are stratagies that are better than others. Those who employ the best stratagies do better than others.

Animals that find an efficient mechanism for behaving in more optimal ways do better.

A feeling of goodness about some behavior and badness about other behaviors is one of the mechanism we have evolved that gets us to behave in an optimal (or relatively optimal) manner for our genes.

This mechanism we call morality (or at least I do, other describe the same feeling but credit them to god, others may mean something else)

Stuff like the prisoners dilemma show how efficient evolution is as finding good stratagies but may also reveal better ones.

chez

[Utah]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That is all there is. There is no morality, good/evil, etc. All there is is games and optimal strategies.

[/ QUOTE ]
There are stratagies that are better than others. Those who employ the best stratagies do better than others.

Animals that find an efficient mechanism for behaving in more optimal ways do better.

A feeling of goodness about some behavior and badness about other behaviors is one of the mechanism we have evolved that gets us to behave in an optimal (or relatively optimal) manner for our genes.

This mechanism we call morality (or at least I do, other describe the same feeling but credit them to god, others may mean something else)

Stuff like the prisoners dilemma show how efficient evolution is as finding good stratagies but may also reveal better ones.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]I agree with you perfectly. But, what we attribute to God and morality is merely mechanisms for our own selfish optimal strategy.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That is all there is. There is no morality, good/evil, etc. All there is is games and optimal strategies.

[/ QUOTE ]
There are stratagies that are better than others. Those who employ the best stratagies do better than others.

Animals that find an efficient mechanism for behaving in more optimal ways do better.

A feeling of goodness about some behavior and badness about other behaviors is one of the mechanism we have evolved that gets us to behave in an optimal (or relatively optimal) manner for our genes.

This mechanism we call morality (or at least I do, other describe the same feeling but credit them to god, others may mean something else)

Stuff like the prisoners dilemma show how efficient evolution is as finding good stratagies but may also reveal better ones.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]I agree with you perfectly. But, what we attribute to God and morality is merely mechanisms for our own selfish optimal strategy.

[/ QUOTE ]
No its the selfish stratagy of our genes.

To us what matters is what we care about, even when its not optimal for our genes.

If you tell me something is best for my genes and I agree with you then that's no reason why I should do it. In fact it would leave me entirely unmoved.

Conversely if I want to do something then I will do it even if its bad for my genes.

Its up to the genes to line things up. Evolution ensure that genes that do a relatively bad job tend to die out but that doesn't imply anything like genes doing a perfect job.

chez

[Utah]

[ QUOTE ]
No its the selfish stratagy of our genes.

To us what matters is what we care about, even when its not optimal for our genes.

If you tell me something is best for my genes and I agree with you then that's no reason why I should do it. In fact it would leave me entirely unmoved.

Conversely if I want to do something then I will do it even if its bad for my genes.

Its up to the genes to line things up. Evolution ensure that genes that do a relatively bad job tend to die out but that doesn't imply anything like genes doing a perfect job.

[/ QUOTE ]If your actions are not highly corollated with your genes strategy and you operate at a detrimental level then you are toast. Genes do not allow that for if they did they would be in too much danger. Yes, it is possible to operate sub-optimally. However, that may simply imply weak genes and genes that are not meant to survive.

[Mickey Brausch]

[ QUOTE ]
There is no morality, good/evil, etc. All there is is games and optimal strategies.

humans as a whole dont engage is strategies that are not optimal. The combination of instincts/rational thought correlates to optimal strategy. How can the idea of morality exist in that environment?

We know that those employing weak strategies who go against opponents using optimal strategy get killed. In this case literally. We exist only because our ancestors used competitive strategies. Of course, it is not a zero sum game.

[/ QUOTE ]It is such posts precisely that give me the incentive to expand on this forum about human heuristics. The ignorance of even competent scientists (a characterization not intended as an insult) in matters of human criteria, choices and preferences is big, astonishingly big, considering moreover how much we have advanced in other disciplines.

[ QUOTE ]
Humans as a whole don't engage is strategies that are not optimal.

[/ QUOTE ]
ROTFLMAO

Mickey Brausch