5/10 Stud High (HORSE) - 3 High Cards

[pipes]

Hello, lurker for awhile. Crawling from under the floorboards due to Stars Horse...

Questions about the hand posted below:

1)In this case, due to the pot size 6th is auto muck, right? Maybe this guy has a pair of 3s and a four flush, but no way can I call this, right?

2)More interesting question for me is how to play the hand if the villain caught a hand like 7s on Sixth Street. Keep on betting? It just seems like I'm dumping too many BBs by continuing to fire in these situations. Check/fold with all those big cards and a gutshot? What is the standard or some guidelines for this situation?

Thanks

7 Card Stud High ($5/$10), Ante $0.50, Bring-In $2 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.70 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 3: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls___calls

4th Street - (3.10 SB)

Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 8: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (2.55 BB)

Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 8: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (4.55 BB)

Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets

Total pot: (4.55 BB)

[Jeffage]

I don't like betting 4th street.

Jeff

[pipes]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like betting 4th street.

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

Hoping you would respond, I like your thinking.

But why not? Aren't there players that will call on 4th and then fold 5th if they don't improve? I don't want to show weakness.

What if I check and he bets?

[Jeffage]

You both ragged off on 4th so the bet is going to be automatically called - he probably has a pair of eights or some kind of pair. If he has something like 678, your check may get him to bluff later. If he does have a pair, the pot will be smaller when you both check 4th and you'll be more likely to take it down on 5th with a bet since you're offering him worse odds. Many won't bother to continue with a dinkish pair and a smaller pot. If 4th goes bet-call, it may hook him into going all the way.

I don't think betting 4th here is a huge mistake at all though with your hand since you can catch lots of good cards, but generally I think people bet too much on 4th when both they and their opponent rags off. This makes it less likely that your opponent will either make a significant mistake later or fold when you want him to later. Just some ramblings - I'm too tired to think about it anymore.

Jeff

[cgrohman]

Do you check/call fourth or check/fold if he bets? Checking 4th here just screams, ok Im lying I dont have a pair of Kings or any other pair for the matter, please bet and take me off the hand. This is ok if your plan is to check/fold, but if the plan is to check/call I like to lead.

[SweetLuckyMe]

Yes, you fold to his likely 2 pair.

[pipes]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you check/call fourth or check/fold if he bets? Checking 4th here just screams, ok Im lying I dont have a pair of Kings or any other pair for the matter, please bet and take me off the hand. This is ok if your plan is to check/fold, but if the plan is to check/call I like to lead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this is the question I have as well. In fact this is sort of the issue I have throughout the entire hand.

Lets replace the 6th street card with a blank for the villain. What is the line for the hand for 4 broadway cards, but no pair?

It just feels as if I'm spewing when I bet the whole way and villain calls down with a single pair. But on the other hand, I wouldn't feel good about check/folding at any point. So I bet.

[SweetLuckyMe]

You were spewing chips - bluffing into someone who's calling you.

Your problem is that he defended his bringin (with a small pair?) for a reason. Determine what that reason was. If he thinks you were stealing, you're very likely *still* stealing. If he's a calling station then there's your reason. Bottom line, don't bluff calling stations, or players willing to take multiple cards off - simply value bet them to death. To be honest, I very likely check/fold 4th or 5th in this sort of hand, and I'm 100% done with it when he open-pairs 3's. There's nothing wrong with stealing, or "value betting" ace high in that early spot - however, throwing good chips after bad is a leak that should be plugged.

[pipes]

[ QUOTE ]
You were spewing chips - bluffing into someone who's calling you.

Your problem is that he defended his bringin (with a small pair?) for a reason. Determine what that reason was. If he thinks you were stealing, you're very likely *still* stealing. If he's a calling station then there's your reason. Bottom line, don't bluff calling stations, or players willing to take multiple cards off - simply value bet them to death. To be honest, I very likely check/fold 4th or 5th in this sort of hand, and I'm 100% done with it when he open-pairs 3's. There's nothing wrong with stealing, or "value betting" ace high in that early spot - however, throwing good chips after bad is a leak that should be plugged.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, I think this is a definite leak I need to plug.

But with my example, I don't see how I could possibly not bet once he catches 3d. If he has a flush or straight type hand he completely blanked.

Now what about 5th? I now have 4 broadway cards headsup. Would you check/fold 5th in this type of hand? The ace is a scarecard here and I now may get a fold. If he gets obstinate with a pair, I'm about even money even if he has one of my kickers.

7-card Stud Hi: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac 5d Kh Qh Jh 240516 48.10 259484 51.90 0 0.00 0.481
8s Kc 8c 3d Ah 259484 51.90 240516 48.10 0 0.00 0.519

If he has a 4 four flush I'm also about even money:

7-card Stud Hi: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac 5d Kh Qh Jh 248780 49.76 250973 50.19 247 0.05 0.498
Kc Qc 8c 5c 3d 250973 50.19 248780 49.76 247 0.05 0.502

Because of all this, I find it very hard to check/fold 5th.

Certainly 6th is a fold once he pairs 3s. But what if he catches 7s? I think I can check/fold 6th as I'm a big dog to a single pair and might be up against more. But I've heard its often a mistake to fold on 6th?

pokenum -7s kh jh qh 5d ac 6s - ah 8s 8c 3d kc 7s / 9c 5h 8h 2s 6h
7-card Stud Hi: 1190 enumerated outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
6s Ac 5d Kh Qh Jh 370 31.09 820 68.91 0 0.00 0.311
8s 7s Kc 8c 3d Ah 820 68.91 370 31.09 0 0.00 0.689

In general I sense this is a leak, but I don't see why I wouldn't keep firing on 4th and 5th in this specific example (even though some very respected posters tell me otherwise...)