Deep Stack Flop Play - Protecting your hand

[montauk]

say you have 100BB's instead of the usual 50BBs, and have any hand you think is in front, and you want to take away pot odds from your opponent.

Hypothetically, with normal sized stacks, people say bet 3/4 - pot on the flop, and it takes away the opponents odds for any draws.

EG, you have AA on a K98 board, 2 suited, the pot is at 100 and you bet the pot, 1 opponent calls on a flush draw and you both have 300 remaining in your stacks, making his implied odds just about worth calling.

In this case, whether it be tournament or deep stack cash games, do you have to significantly overbet the pot to protect your hands when you have 70%+ of stack remaining.

[AKQJ10]

Only if you're planning to lose your whole stack if the draw hits.

Now, if you always fold to any scare card you'll be extremely bluffable, so you have to figure some sort of implied odds. But you're not certain to pay off your entire stack.

See NLHE:TAP for a much much more detailed discussion of these concepts.

[wazz]

Far too simplistic. If you have AA against a pair and a flush draw you are flipping a coin for the pot if you decide to put your whole stack in, which is not advised. If you overbet the pot you are giving away information as to the strength of your hand unless you routinely overbet. The problem on such a co-ordinated board is that roughly a quarter of the possible turn cards can viably be represented as danger cards. The question of reads comes into this in a very big way, and without them there is no real need to overbet the pot - just make a bet within your standard range.

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
The question of reads comes into this in a very big way, and with them there is no real need to overbet the pot - just make a bet within your standard range.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right? If you're totally unable to read hands, you need to bet much more to take away the IO because you're going to need to pay off more often. If you can read hands, this isn't as necessary.

[wazz]

Sorry, you're right, that's what I meant to say.

[montauk]

Can I give an example of a hand I played, to illustrate my point. Thanks also for the TAP book advice.

Stack sizes are 500 for each player in cash game. Both Heros are semi-loose aggressive, I put them both on premium or near premium hands.

UTG raises to 12
EP calls
HERO - MP reraise to 50, with AA
BUTTON Calls
UTG mucks
EP calls.
3 in the pot, $165.

FLOP - K63 , 2 suited.

At this point, I'm hoping someone has AK or 99-QQ, if someone has KK that's just bad luck for me as they would have normally re-raised pre.

EP checks.
I slightly overbet the pot 175,
EP + Button call

The pot is now about 680.

Turn is a J, making it 3 clubs on the board. At this point I have 250 left in my stack, any bet i make would put me AI. I know the other 2 players are aggressive and will bet with a flush draw combined with any of AK, 99-QQ. The only hand that has me at this point is AKs of clubs or JJ, which is only about 30% of all the hands I put these 2 on.

EP bets 100
HERO reraises 250 AI
BUTTON calls,
EP calls.

POT TOTAL - about 1300.

[montauk]

Turns out, BUTTON had AK, perfect. But then EP hit his flush on the turn.

Could anyone please give me any advice on this hand? Is a turn laydown possible?

[wazz]

Some important details are missing. It is important which of the 3 cards on the flop were clubs. If the king was the non-club it is a much more dangerous board, for example, as you are flipping a coin with Kx clubs. You had AA, was one of them a club?

I don't feel you played this hand too badly really. If you fold for $250 into a $680 pot everytime a flush is possible everyone else at the table will rape you. Quite simply, you've got to give action to get action, and sometimes you will have to put your stack in drawing dead.

[Gromph]

u dont have to, if the flush come, u dont have to go all in :-P, so his implied odds are not ur max stakes, and if u have position on him, he will surely not be able to get all ur money, so, if u r 1vs1, and u bet 3/4 of the pot, u will make him do a mistake by calling

in the case u r vs multiple opponent, u can bet more with a good hand like urs, cause, if the first player call, and the other is flush draw, he is getting the odds to call

[Gromph]

actually, did u have the ace of club? if so, u cant fold it for sure

else, if u think u win more than 20 % of time, u have to call/push.