The Natheism of the MTT forum (A noob warning)

[Nez477]

Fellow MTTers,

Lately there has been a large movement across these boards that is both good and bad about opening up your game by playing loose and aggressive. For any noobs, as I really didn't understand this completely a year ago, we're talking about playing lots of hands and taking advantage of position to play aggressive and take down lots of pots, with or without an actual hand. I mean, there is much more to it obviously, but that's the very general definition of being a LAG.

Nath does have a unique, aggressive, and crazy style that works for him. It has flaws, and we've discussed what those might be in his freakonomics thread and others. But you cannot argue that he is a winning player and plays differently than almost anyone on this board.

But Nath's, may I say, "Style" is not really want makes him a winning player. I mean, yes, that is how he administers pain to others, but his lagginess/craziness is NOT, I repeat, NOT why he is successful.

He is doing so much more than just playing a lot of hands and being aggressive. In order to get to the point where you can play the way he does or any other successful MTTer does, you have to do many things.

1) You have to understand the game. Period. This is extremely broad, obviously, but you have to know Pot Odds, Fold Equity, the math of the game backwards and forwards. You HAVE to know about implied odds especially. If you cannot talk about why you are playing 4-5 suited in EP then you can't play it. You need to think outside the box about your cards. Instead of limp-raising UTG with AA because it's an easy way to play them, think about why you'd want to do it and what the advantages are of playing it a certain way.

2) You have to be able to disconnect from your hole cards. You hole cards are what they are, and no matter how sexy they might look preflop, each street changes things SOOO much, and if you aren't going to be able to disconnect from your holding because you feel you "Should" win the pot with them, then you are screwed.

3) You need to be able to read hands. "What does the bet size mean, what did he do in the past, how would he play a draw, how would he play TPTK, how will he react if I do this....." This is not an easy skill. It takes days upon days upon days of practicing and playing against a wide variety of opponents in many different situations to get this down, and even then there is obviously no exact science to it.

Just because it's fresh, I'll use the current discussion between Nath and the anti-Nath, UCLA. These two have SOOOOOOOOO much in common people. We've been beating the LAG vs. TAG debate like crazy lately. Posts like "Trying out my LAGGY side" or whatever, and the difference isn't that large. Nath and UCLA both are doing the same thing: They are trying to win a tournament. How are they doing this? By putting themselves in the most +EV situations as possible.

Anyone who sees a LAG's hand history, sees him raise with something in a position that you haven't before and then say "I want to try that", you are screwed.

Hand Analysis

UTG+1 raises to 600 at the 100/200/25 level on stars. He has been playing semi solid poker, you've been playing 4 orbits with him. He has a stack of 8100. He had shown down JJ in that position once with the same raise at the 75/150 level. He also called a push from the SB after raising with K-Qo due to pot odds. So he's a pretty decent, thinking player as far as we can tell. He also raised 3.5x the BB in MP last orbit at the same level and folded to a 2200 raise from the button.

MP2 calls. He's been way too active, and overpushed a flush draw on a turn and hit it on the river to get where he's at. Very loose, semi-crazy. He has a stack of 10.1k.

You are on the button with Q9 of spades and a stack of 12k. You have been more active than some, but have not shown down anything less than good to great holdings.

The question to ask here is NOT is it better to be LAGGY or TAGGY. What are the ramifications of calling/folding/raising here? For each player, this is different. Mathematically, there is a correct answer. I don't know what it is, no one knows what it is. There are too many variables.

The correct answer, for each and every poker player, is going to have to adhere to your playing ability/skill/hand reading/post flop play. This is a very complicated process, and you don't have the time to figure it all out. For example, if the flop comes down 9-3-2r, what is your play going to be? Will you be able to make a good judgement call on that flop based on the texture of UTG+1's bet on the flop? What are your chances of hitting a big hand/draw? How often will you be able to win a substantial pot when you hit those hands? For some players it is +EV to call this on the button. For others, it is not.

You have to be aware and able to answer these types of questions before you start playing marginal hands. You can't just say "LAGGY TIME!!!" and play accordingly.

Poker is an intricate game. Every successful player on this site are doing the same thing. They are putting themselves in the most +EV situations that they possibly can. PLAYING LIKE A LAG FOR THE SAKE OF PLAYING LIKE A LAG IS SUPER DANGEROUS.

There is no correct 'style' to winning a tournament. There isn't. Anyone who thinks that one style is better than the other is probably not thinking it through. The GREAT players are really doing one thing: They are putting everything they know about poker into every decision that he/she makes and is therefore making the most +EV decision in that situation.

So if you aspire to be like Nath, don't try and be LAGGY. Just try and be a good poker player. That's really what it's all about. Nath doesn't win because he's laggy. UCLA doesn't win because he's taggy. Locutus doesn't win because he's crazy. MLG doesn't win because he likes the Yankees. Adanthar doesn't win because he's to level-headed. They all win for the same reason:

They are good, thinking, analytical poker players. So don't try and adapt a style, just adapt their base thinking and you will go somewhere.

Finally, just as a disclaimer, I know that this does not even come close to encompass what one must do to be a good poker player, it only hits the tip of the iceberg. But with so many of the new posters missing this bottom line, I htought it'd be worth posting. I hope it helps a little.

Brad

[mlagoo]

zomg nath

[uclabruinz]

The first time I reviewed a Nath (ZOMG!) hand history my initial reaction was that we have much more in common then we have different, considering the fact that he's the anti-ucla. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Great post, Brad. Way to reset things.

[seke2]

Nice post, Brad. Since I'm someone who really wants to add the capability to play the maniac style to my repetoire, this point is a good reminder to think about why I'm doing it, and not just being like "ZOMG 64s UTG, I'm supposed to raise now!"

[uclabruinz]

There are times (although rare) when I, the perceived tightest player around 2p2, raise 64s UTG. The question is, DO YOU SEE WHY?

*This is directed at the "you" in general, nobody specifically.

[Ansky]

mhmm


btw all u nath ball slobbers, just so u remember, most winning players are TAGs. Style in MTTs is quite different from style in other games. Its the same reason that i think x/y/z pt stats are useless in tournaments. Table dynamics can make me a 45/30 or a 15/5. When ppl ask me what my style is, I never really give a concrete answer although most ppl think im LAG.

Oh and jesus christ do not deliberately try to play a specific style. Search for the most +EV options presented to you from your perspective, do not just try to play like a lunatic because that stud Nath does.

[mornelth]

Very nice and very overdue.

That said - here's some thoughts on the subject for newer players :

TAG is easier to learn, less expensive and doesn't pose as many tough decisions to the player, and there's a book written on how to play TAG. It's called HOH (I and II, III touches on LAG to some extent). Everybody should start out TAG.

LAG is impossible to play witout critical poker skills descibed in the first post. If you do not know WHY you are doing what you're doing - you're playing LDONK, not LAG (been there myself, so I speak from experience).


Best of luck at the tables other than the one I'm at... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Black Aces 518]

Tremendous post, not just for its content, but the term "Nathiest" for a follower of Nath is absolutely golden.

[mornelth]

[ QUOTE ]
mhmm

btw all u nath ball slobbers, just so u remember, most winning players are TAGs. Style in MTTs is quite different from style in other games. Its the same reason that i think x/y/z pt stats are useless in tournaments. Table dynamics can make me a 45/30 or a 15/5. When ppl ask me what my style is, I never really give a concrete answer although most ppl think im LAG.

Oh and jesus christ do not deliberately try to play a specific style. Search for the most +EV options presented to you from your perspective, do not just try to play like a lunatic because that stud Nath does.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nath is a prophet sent to us by poker Gods to teach us LAG... Abandon all thy heathen TAG ways and follow Nath almighty into the Promised LAG...

U may or may not be jealous of Nath's sudden fame, Ansky, but you sure do sound it. Just an FYI.

[seke2]

Be honest, Brad.

Did you just come up with "Natheism" and then write this whole post cause that term rules so much, and you had to figure out some way of giving us your new word?