"Outplaying"

[dmk]

"Outplay"

Everytime I read that word in a post I cringe. Everytime I hear someone say it in a live game I throw up in my mouth. "Wow, you got outplayed there!!" The majority of poker players nowadays think folding T-high after someone w/ 9-high pushes and shows his bluff is getting outplayed. Hardly.

Outplaying is used almost exclusively as a synonym for bluffing. "You have the button! See a flop and try to outplay him!" Oh, you mean take a flop and bluff if I miss? Everyone thinks they're a brilliant post-flop player. They want to be a Gus Hansen or a Daniel Negreanu. The sad news for most of these people is this: You're simply not good enough to make mediocre calls pre-flop in order to "outplay" someone. There's a reason cash players salivate when a "tournament pro" sits down in their game.

Outplaying is more than bluffing. In tournaments, especially online, it is a very rare occurence that you are deep enough to pull off some sort of elaborate bluff. So what is outplaying? Its getting your chips in when you're ahead. Its folding when you know you're beat. Its not getting in a pot to begin with because the situation just isn't favorable. Its check/calling a hyper-aggro w/ a mediocre hand. Its hand-reading. Its pot-control. There's more to outplaying than raising.

So if outplaying is all of these things, why would you respond to a hand history with "call and outplay on the flop?" If by outplay you mean make the best possible decisions based on the information I have available to me, then OK, but I plan on doing that every hand I play.

Here is an example of the type of post I can't stand.

[ QUOTE ]
pf is fine, although sometimes I will only call here & look to outplay after the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
This was regarding a hand where Hero with T1225 and TT raised to 200 after an UTG limper (T1365) at 25/50 blinds. The obsession with "outplaying" someone translates into leaving chips on the table that should be in your stack. This reasoning for calling is unacceptable. Is UTG unusually tight? OK,, then call because you likely have a hand that is behind but has huge implied odds. Is UTG usually aggro and the limp is suspect? OK, then you're calling because you again have a hand that has huge implied odds against a holding that may be looking for a limp/reraise. However, to say that sometimes you just call and look to outplay on the flop is just wrong. Without any reads, you have what rates to be the best hand. By not raising, you are getting outplayed by yourself. You're leaving extra chips on the table. Put a raise in there...you have the 5th best starting hand. None of this "call and outplay on the flop" bs.

This isn't meant as a personal attack on the poster of the quote above. This is just a line of thinking that needs to fall by the wayside. Concetrate on making sound decisions - reasoned decisions. If you want to take a flop, indulge the forum. Tell us your plan on different flops, etc. Just keep in mind that there's more to outplaying than raising/bluffing. Folding is just as admirable.

[Jurollo]

I concur. I think the word is used to liberally in the place of "bluff". However, when, if, Iever use it I use it in the context of.... "put villian on a range and fire at flops that this hand misses"... which is sorta covered in your post/rant.
~Justin

[PuertoKid]

hurraaaay for your post! I've thought this for a long time. I have a running joke in some of the local homegames I play in. When I'm behind or simply fold my hand preflop I'll sometimes say "I'm going to outplay you and fold my hand."

Outplaying someone often means folding. But it means so many things more as you well state in your post.

[nath]

being able to "outplay" an opponent usually involves a level of skill in narrowing his hand range that we simply don't have / isn't available online with the donks that call with Ax and third pair and gutshots to the dumb end and whatnot.
I find it's not so much used as a synonym for "bluff" as it is a euphemism for "I'm afraid of committing too many chips preflop".

[Jurollo]

I am referring to slightly higher buyins with players you are somewhat familiar with. It becomes much easier to put people on smaller ranges, thereby knowing when you are completely skulled and when you can fairly safely apply pressure.
~Justin

[Beachman42]

Let the flaming begin!

I posted the quote, and no, you didn’t take it out of context. I meant what I said. TT is one of the hardest hands to play THAT SHOULD BE PLAYED, IMO. Limping sometimes/raising sometimes is read dependent and a necessity to keep your opponents guessing. Given the absolute scarcity of reads in most posts in this forum, you must have some confidence in you 2 cards AND your playing ability (experience). If no one calls behind me, then I have position and (most of the time) more OPTIONS of how to continue my action. I can use my read, position, and stack to formulate a line of play that results in me winning or bailing at the most efficient ROI. If someone does call behind me, then my options are FAR more limited and can let go of this holding without investing too many chips, unless I flop a set or better.

In this example, I am looking to OUTPLAY a weaker opponent who limps UTG. I am not bluffing, but I am showing some prudent judgment that there are others still to act. Bottom line, IMHO, is that if you do not have the confidence to outplay post flop most of your opponents, then you are severely limited in your options at the table.

If you still don't see this line, then I suggest you try a live MTT sometime.

I welcome all constructive criticism either by post or PM.

[nath]

This thread gives me a perfect excuse to post this hand from last night's 3r 10k. Little bugger to my left was a Gus Hansen wannabe, calling my raises every time and trying to take away the pot, occasionally flipping over absolute garbage to show how smart he was. Needless to say, his stack had been dwindling. (We each arrived at the table with about 10k, and you can see where the stacks are now.)
With this hand I decided to let him try to "outplay" the rest of his chips over to me.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) converter

UTG+1 (t29150)
MP1 (t18013)
MP2 (t12310)
Hero (t18610)
CO (t4843)
Button (t7649)
SB (t14215)
BB (t6457)
UTG (t8972)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t700</font>, CO calls t700, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: (t1600) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets t800</font>, Hero calls t800.

Turn: (t3200) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO checks.

River: (t3200) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t1000</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t3000</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t5000</font>, CO folds.

Final Pot: t11200

The best part is that his little river bluff left him 250 chips behind-- the ol' "hanging on to cab fare" bluff. Couldn't have made it easier on me. (OK, maybe this belongs in BBV, but it's such a good example of what happens when a doofus tries to "outplay" his opponents.)

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
I am referring to slightly higher buyins with players you are somewhat familiar with. It becomes much easier to put people on smaller ranges, thereby knowing when you are completely skulled and when you can fairly safely apply pressure.
~Justin

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah, I agree with you. I wasn't responding directly to your comment but to the idea of "outplaying" as it gets thrown around in general.

[Marwan]

okay ya, but Matt Damon definitely did outplay Johnny Chan

[Ansky]

I sat with the best. And I won.