Open Ks vs 4 others on 5th

[Todd]

I am sure that this is another raise fold hand on 3rd. But I hit nearly perfect on 4th.

5th caused me some problems. Everyone called against open Ks, so I figure there is strength out against me. One villian hits a three flush, another pairs their door card.

So I check on 5th, figuring that they are not going to fold, with me hitting a blank. The paired door bets into me, and I go into the tank.

DO I raise to isolate against the 6s?

Do I turn into a passive wimp, and call, hoping for the best, and that the 3 flush is not a 5-flush?

Do I do the unthinkable, and fold, reasoning that I could be behind trips 6s, a flush, and a strt or strt draw?

Any input would be invaluable.

Thanks,

Todd



7 Card Stud High ($0.50/$1.00), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.25 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.80 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in
Seat 4: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (3.80 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___double bets
Seat 6: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (6.90 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 4: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___HERO...?
Seat 6: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 7: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks



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[Bartholow]

These hands are really showing how starting with weak hands puts you into tough spots later. In this case, you played a small pair with a dead kicker. This made your paired door much less scary (low limit players will come up with any excuse not to fold). And now on 5th, you have one less out to fill up when it looks like you could need it.

I have no idea what to do on 5th. Fold 3rd.

[electrical]

If you're behind you have two outs, and if you're ahead, it isn't by much. You may have been able to avoid this situation if you raised on 3rd, but with an underpair, all overcards behind you and a dead kicker, 3rd is a fold anyway.

Pairs, whatever their size, hate playing through a crowd, because with a large field it's more likely that one of your opponents will pick-up enough of a hand to call you, and then the pot gets big enough that everybody calls behind and it gets tough for a hand to hold-up.

[SimonAllan]

3rd street fold>raise>call, because you are in early position, a king is dead and a raise is unlikely to get the hand heads-up in this game.

I think I would probably have led out on fifth, and then re-evaluate based on the action - not all the callers will have legitimate hands here, and you may well still be ahead. I think this is better than c/f or c/c here.

[Todd]

These hands are really showing how starting with weak hands puts you into tough spots later.

---

This is so true. One of the most +EV aspects of reviewing your hands and posting them here on 2+2 is seeing how obviously bad one or another of your plays are.


T

[Todd]

Oh one more point.

One of the ideas that I held for a long time was that these hands, while weak, are not particularly dangerous, since you can get away from them pretty easily if you dont make anything on 4th.

So with a hand like 87/8 if you hit an 8 or a 7, you go on, and if you hit a 9 or a 6, you see how the action is. Anything else and you are gone.

With this hand 55/K no 5 or K, and you are done for a minimal investment. Hit a 5 or a K, and you SHOULD take down a big pot.

BUt in the last couple of hands I posted, Hero makes a decent hand, but events unfold to put Hero in a difficult situation.

So perhaps a critical attribute of these hands, at least when you decide what to do on third, is that they could be very difficult to play on later streets, either against a number of villians, or against a lot of action.

Todd

[Bartholow]

Another way to put what you are saying is that these hands can make you a lot of second best hands. Which is bad.

[SweetLuckyMe]

[ QUOTE ]
BUt in the last couple of hands I posted, Hero makes a decent hand, but events unfold to put Hero in a difficult situation.

So perhaps a critical attribute of these hands, at least when you decide what to do on third, is that they could be very difficult to play on later streets, either against a number of villians, or against a lot of action.

[/ QUOTE ] Correct. So the moral to the story is - unless you feel as though you have good control over the table, simple don't play the hand to begin with. The only really profitable card for you to hit with that sort of hand is a 5 - everything else is either going to win you a likely small pot or put you in a very expensive second best position.

[Wahoo73]

I generally agree with other posters that you are better off folding on 3rd street with hands like this in this position and situation. However, I too will play them occasionally for the reasons you cited plus the fact that your pocket pair adds a lot of deception for a potential big pot if you do hit on later streets.

Having said that, this particular hand on 4th street presents you with the challenge of convincing the rest of the players that you have more than just KK, and, in my experience, betting-out with a double bet is not the way to do it, especially at this level of stakes. Nobody is going to give you credit for having trip Ks in this situation because one K is dead and they will (correctly) deduce that if you had split Ks to start that you would have raised on 3rd street. So in this case I would either check hoping that someone else would bet so that I could then raise, or I would make a single bet.

I have found that when I check in situations like this with this many players, invariably one of the players behind me will come in with a bet, usually a single bet (presumably to test the strength of the rest of the table and demonstrate a little strength themselves). This then gives me the opportuntiy to raise and hopefully get at least one or two of the others to fold. And if nobody bets behind me, then I wait and see how things develop on 5th street, figuring it's still an easy fold if the board gets really scary.

Conversely, if I decide to single bet 4th street in this situation I send out a signal to the rest that I have some strength in addition to my Ks, and that I want at least some of them to call, i.e., it makes them suspicious. Also, this does save me a SB, thus making it slightly easier to get away from the hand on later streets.

Regardless of which tactic you use, the point is that you want to convince the table that you are stronger than what is visible.

In your specific hand, because of the other dead K on 3rd, the other dead 5 on 4th, and all of the dead spades, I probably would have tried for a check-raise on 4th.

[Todd]

I think that is a good suggestion Wahoo.

My thinking for the full bet was that the table had been quite loose, and I had a made hand, with which I am comfortable going to the river.

I figured that with a full bet I would fold 2 or 3 or the 5 chasers, and be OK to go heads up or against 2 villians who would be chasing.

The fact that everyone called certainly was a surprise.