2/4 When you sense its a bluff...

BenA · #1 08-22-2006, 02:10 AM

Villain plays as though he is eternally on tilt. I've seen him hand after hand try to push everyone off when he has any piece of something, and amazingly against some of these players, it works constantly. He is 50/23/2 over 400 hands. The AF doesn't seem right, considering that when I've watched him intently, he plays like a maniac post-flop, and shows down some bizarre and often terrible holdings. Could just be recently, I dunno.

PokerRoom 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 7 folds, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (5 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero takes a deep breath and...

Okay, I feel that getting 5.5:1, since its not good enough for my 'outs,' this call is for the river also, since I know he won't let up if he is bluffing. So I have to decide to call one now and one on the river UI, which is 6.5:2. I felt I was right, and that he was bluffing, but I agonized over the decision. I don't want him to just always fold me, so do I call down?

SixForty · #2 08-22-2006, 02:26 AM

If the guy is a chronic bluffer, then let him! This board is bluff friendly in his eyes, and you have a hand that has showdown value against a bluff.

If he fires unimproved as often as you say he does, I'd call down here.

Webster · #3 08-22-2006, 07:12 AM

I'm not liking your flop raise. What are you trying to do, bluff a bluffer? You KNOW he will not fold so YOU are now bluffing and the last thing you ever want to do is try to bluff a bluffer.

When you raise you should have been thinking what to do when he calls.

One point - you have to be thinking ahead in chess, if I do this and he does that THEN what do I do. In your situation you either have to raise again which would suck, or fold.

Calling tells him you have nothing and he can bet again with confidence on the river.

I would chack/call knowing that you cost yourself an extra bet when you miss the river.

Always think ahead.

GMMigge · #4 08-22-2006, 10:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not liking your flop raise. What are you trying to do, bluff a bluffer? You KNOW he will not fold so YOU are now bluffing and the last thing you ever want to do is try to bluff a bluffer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think he raised as a bluff, the raise was most probably meant as a value raise.

Not saying that it was a good raise though. I would much rather simply call this down unless I spike a pair which I would raise.

Ricks · #5 08-22-2006, 12:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The AF doesn't seem right, considering that when I've watched him intently, he plays like a maniac post-flop, and shows down some bizarre and often terrible holdings. Could just be recently, I dunno.

[/ QUOTE ]

A person with a 50% VPIP and an AF of 2 is the equivalent of a player with a 20% VPIP and an AF of 5.

alimoe · #6 08-22-2006, 12:24 PM

Could you expand on why that's true. I understand it, but have trouble putting it in words. Also, are those numbers just guesses or is there some logic behind it?

Thanks,
matt

Justin A · #7 08-22-2006, 01:08 PM

Ben,

You have to ask yourself if this guy would bet the flop, get raised, and then bet the turn again with a hand like J9 or K2.

A lot of maniacal players will keep firing as long as they have the initiative, meaning that they slow down when they get raised. If this is that type of player, then you can find a fold here. If he's dumb enough to keep blindly firing, then you've got to call down.

bozlax · #8 08-22-2006, 01:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
shows down some bizarre and often terrible holdings

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess it comes down to whether you've ever seen him fold. If "no" then I don't see any point in a flop raise. A calldown is fine, tho, against this type of player with a strong overcard hand provided a) you do it every time, and b) it's not going to put you on monkey-tilt when he shows down J4o to beat you.

-brew- · #9 08-22-2006, 03:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I don't want him to just always fold me, so do I call down?

[/ QUOTE ]

This can be a costly state of mind and we could all profit by considering the importance of this statement. I believe that you were commited to calling him down come hell or high water. If that is the case then you can just commit to calling, since he won't go away with a raise. So learning to think ahead to the turn and the river when you get involved with a guy like this would be a benefit. For instance ask yourself "Here is this maniac, I have a marginal hand at best, even maniacs get hands sometimes, but I will call no matter what, or will I fold if XYZ occurs."

BenA · #10 08-22-2006, 03:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If he's dumb enough to keep blindly firing, then you've got to call down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was pretty sure he was dumb enough. On a board where numerous random holdings make a straight or little pairs or even 2 pair, betting into me again on the turn worried me. But I'd seen him do this often. I think he knows that donking the turn after calling a flop raise is confusing and scary, but it was becoming a slightly detectable pattern. He does fold sometimes, but once he decides to bluff, its like his whole life depends on pushing you off that pot.

I showed down...