LO/8 $2/$4 : Extreme backdoor action question

[luvrhino]

I'm very new to Omaha, and i'm sure this is a basic, common scenario. Anyway, here's the hand:

Absolute Poker
Limit Omaha Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
9 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is MP3 with 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, 4 folds, <font color="#cc0000">UTG caps</font>, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (13.5SB, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">UTG bets</font>, MP1 calls, Hero folds.

Turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (7.75BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">UTG bets</font>, MP1 calls.

River: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (9.75BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">UTG bets</font>, MP1 calls.

Results:
Final pot: 11.75BB
<font color="#ffffff">UTG Shows Ad Ac 6c Qc - Wins Hi with AA</font>
<font color="#ffffff">MP1 Shows 8d Ks 7s 9d - Wins Lo with 86753</font>

First off, my pre-flop 3-bet was carelessness, which i regretted immediately. I'm pretty sure i want to just cold-call and get more customers, correct?

My main question, however, concerns whether i should have taken one off on the Flop. Obviously, the pot is quite large with only two opps. Both my opps were rather loose, with UTG also being quite aggressive. Pre-flop, he'd raise with any high pair and, i think, almost any A2 or A3. Moreover, i know if i'd hit, i'd get paid off well. Finally, being to the right of the better, i wouldn't need to worry about being raised. If a hi-card hit on the Turn, i could release my hand, with no further damage.

I guess i want to know under what conditions is it okay to call on the Flop with only a backdoor low draw. There's the chance i'd be quartered if i hit it, but any low i'd make would be the nuts and likely make a straight allowing me to scoop.

Obviously, here it would have worked fantastically, but i want to be making correct decisions rather than focus on results. In retrospect, i'm fairly certain i should have called the Flop because of the pot size and my opponents. But if I turned my 3 or 4 into a 9, i'm not so sure the call would be correct.

What say you?

[Chris Daddy Cool]

preflop 3-bet is actually fine imo.

i would peel the flop for sure getting 15-1 and closing the action. both your backdoors are to the nuts.

[Habib Marwan]

good fold

[luvrhino]

Gah, i completely missed the backdoor nut flush draw, in which case i definitely would have called. I should stop playing Omaha at the same time i'm doing Limit Holdem Tournaments. At least until i get more of a clue about how to play O/8.

On the plus side, the great thing about O/8 is that i've been profitable despite only having a vauge idea what i'm doing. I need to go acquire Zee's book and get clued.

Thanks.

[1MoreFish4U]

It's too bad the player names aren't visible. I play about 7k hands a week of h/l at AP and would have a better idea of what you were up against if I knew who UTG was.

In any case, why would you want to 3 bet &amp; limit the callers when you have a hand that plays perfectly multiway?

As far as taking one off, that's your call. I guess occasionally we all chase runner-runner depending on the circumstances, pot size, opponent, etc. Personally if I was willing to take another card I quite possibly would raise the flop to find out where I stood.

Most often after a flop like that just fold up your tent &amp; move on to the next hand.

[luvrhino]

UTG was "DANIUS" or something like that. He uploaded a picture of Phil Ivey for his icon. Based on his complaining in chat, he seemed likely to be tilting at the time. I've only played a couple hundred hands of O/8 total at AP (and maybe another 200-300 elsewhere), so my reads of opponents should be taken with a grain of salt.

As i mentioned in my initial post, i regretted the pre-Flop 3-bet immediately. I was simply being careless.

Raising on the Flop seemes very wrong to me. I already knew about where i stood. If i hit runner-runner, i'd either scoop or snag half the pot...with a chance of being quartered on the low. Otherwise, i have next to nothing.

Raising on the Flop would allow a re-raise, which is bad. The fact that my Flop call would close out the betting is a large part of the reason i think taking one off would have is right.

Finally, the implied tilt odds if i hit my runner-runner makes it a clear call, IMO.

[1MoreFish4U]

His VPIP is over 55%, His constant complaining seems to be a part of his gameplan. He might very well have bet with a marginal hand &amp; he does lay them down when you come back at him. There is an excellent chance that his flop bet was a probing one to see if anyone had a piece of the flop. The flop raise suggestion is a less than common play at low limits that works well in certain situations. Even if it doesn't win the pot for you there, it does give your opponents more to think about in the future.

[Makonnen]

WARNING: Badd Buzz Impersonation in Progress

Cards that help you:

3 aces, 3 twos, 3 threes, 3 fours, 3 fives, 4 sixes, 4 sevens, 4 eights. That's 27 outs, but a little misleading. Let's cut out the 7's and 8's, 2 of the aces, and two of the other low cards, making some assumptions about needing a straight and what the other folks have. That leaves 15 outs, but you really need 15 outs, followed by 14 outs.

There are 41 unseen cards, so you're pulling to a 36% chance followed by a 40% chance. Overall chance of hitting is just under 15%. 15% needs roughly 7:1.

You're getting 13:1 on the flop (and will, of course, bail if you miss the turn). If you think you will only get half the pot, its close, but if you think you're straight is going to allow you to scoop, its an easy call on the flop, I think.

Someone check my math: I'm under caffeinated.

-Makonnen

[adenosine]

I agree that 3 betting wasn't the best decision. On hands like that that play very well in multi-player pots I tend to limp or call unless I'm in a very late position and can get a number of people to pay for a raise.

I'm not sure about the flop, my inclination would be to drop the hand like you did. Maybe it's not the best decision math-wise, but after I see a few horrible turns with a ton of great backdoors, it gets me a little upset, and I don't play as well. Better, at least for me, to drop hands like that and pick better times to see cards.