4 card double discard Irish hand where I might be getting freerolled

[RoundTower]

Dealer's choice home game a few weeks ago. Blinds 50c-50c, it usually gets straddled up to $4 or so and occasionally up to $32. For many reasons the details of this hand are a bit hazy, but I think I worked them out.

In this game you get 4 cards and discard one after the flop betting and one after the turn betting. Then you are left with two cards which you play as in hold'em. So this is a hold'em variant but I posted it here anyway because you get 4 cards. We are playing pot limit.

9 handed. Button ($550) is a very good Omaha player, probably one of the winningest mid/high stakes players on the European sites. EP ($200) is an excellent tournament player but does not play much Omaha.

I have 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. UTG straddles for $1, UTG+1 straddles for $2, UTG+2 straddles for $4. Guy limps, I limp in the CO, button limps, 2 of the blinds/straddlers play. 5 handed to the flop.

Flop 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. EP bets $20, MP calls, I make it $60. Button makes it $250. He has $300 behind. EP calls all in. MP folds. My play?

[bugstud]

might as well gamb00000000l. Flop raise looks really bad in retrospect, especially given that you get to see the turn, possible redraw into the higher straight and then stick it in.

[donkey]

this seems like as good a spot as any to fold the nuts. if the guy is tight this is prolly a fold

[alphatmw]

your home game sounds fun.

[CrushinFelt]

I agree that your raise does look like its biting you in the ass. You should basically treat this like an omaha hand and fold the nuts because you're prbably getting freerolled.

Your best case scenario is that he also has the nut straight and two spades and that neither of those spades are the Ts or 9s. If one (or both) of those cards are in his hand along with another spade then you are getting freerolled for two cards. For instance, if he has Ks Ts 9h x , then he can discard x after the non-spade turn and still have a freeroll on you, or a redraw if you hit a higher straight. Your best case, as I said earlier is if he were to have Td 9h Xs Xs, because then you are only getting freerolled for one card as he will have to discard one of his spades after then turn assuming no spade comes and you don't make a higher straight. And then you actually are freerolling for a higher straight on the river. This seems highly unlikely as you already have two of the non-spade 10 and 9.

Another scenario that is possible is a set + nut straight. This however is the same as the best case scenario above because he will have to discard one of the "set cards" (like J J 10 9, he'll have to discard a J after a non-improving turn), and you'll once again be freerolling to a higher straight to the river.

I think a fold may be in order here if these players are as solid as you think they are. A safe turn card would have been a better time to get more money in the pot. Even then, you could be getting freerolled to the river if he has something like Xs Ts 9h x.

Note: These are just the first thoughts that come to mind, feel free to be critical of my thoughts (as I know all you will) [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[RoundTower]

Crushin,
I like your analysis but I think you have mixed up the rules. We are going to discard one card straight away (obviously I will dump the 6) and we will only have 2 cards going into the river.

[CrushinFelt]

Edit: After I posted this I realized its a bit ramble-ish, but you can get the points I'm trying to make. Lots of possibilities... [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Ah ha... Yes I misread it a bit... lets see, that changes things a bit then doesn't it... you can only really get freerolled for one card no matter what (Unless he's holding the Ts 9s? So it's probably safe to assume that with two cards to come you each have three-card hands something to the effect of: Your Q T 9 and his T 9 Xs with either the 10 or the 9 being a spade. Maybe not "Safe to assume" but a definite possibility.

There's basically no way you will improve your hand and something around the effect of 9 that will improve his hand. It's not a terrible situation with only one card to come. So let's look at the money sitaution...

You have to call $190 and there's approximately ($250 + 60 + 20 + 20 + 20) = $370 in the pot. $370 / 190 = 1.95.

I think you're getting your moneys worth to see the next card assuming the inital bettor won't be pulling any silly stuff.

Of course, there are other possibilities. If you are up against Ts 9s you're in deep [censored] for the river, and if your tourney player friend has a set and wants to stick $230 into an approximately $600 pot with a set or something then there's other cards you don't want to see on the turn.

Overall, it's obviously not as terrible as sticking it in there in Omaha without redraws, but it's not a good situation for you. If a blank falls and it checks to the winning player and he gets it all in there, do you call, or do you fold thinking he has the Ts 9s (almost an impossible read to make)? If you don't think you can call then fold, if you can call and you think the other player is going to fold to the raise then call.

If it's heads up on the turn and the board pairs, can you bluff him to keep him from putting his last $300 in the pot? If so, and you thin the player behind you won't see the turn, then maybe call as well.

One last thing: If the inital bettor has the nut flush draw instead of a set, will he put his money in there? Do you think he'd bet like that with just the nut flush draw? It would lessen your freinds outs on freerolling you.

[RoundTower]

one more thing you missed is that the first bettor is all in. Sorry if my original post isn't very clear on these details.

If I call I have to push a blank turn really, calling now and folding for the last 300 would be bad.

One interesting thing I just realised is how much better this hand would be for me if I had just the lone 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

[christyirish]

if the flush doesnt come on the turn he might have to discard his flush draw, so freerolling aint as bad as in omaha.

[alphatmw]

yeah, if the stacks were deeper, wouldn't calling the flop and potting a turn that didn't complete a flush be an optimal play? even with the stacks as they are, this seems like a good play.