Playing against many overagressive 40/20 types that bluffs alot

[Erik W]

How to deal with these guys?

Lately I have played against that kind of overagressive opponent who is like 40-50/20/2.5 that donkbluffs and overplay their hands all the time. Cr 3pair on AK boards etc. Donk into pfr with made and unmade hands and pure bluffs.

I think they are really hard to play against.
I am a 27/17/2.3 kind of player.
Normally I raise liberally etc.

I think that against these kind of players who go to showdown very often you need to raise less and play less hands. When you are in you want a superior holding and when you hit value bet them and call down with weak made hands.

Often a hand looks like this.
They limp and I raise A7s. Flop comes like Q94 and the donk.
If they hit anything on that board I have very low equity to continue and they regularly bluff but not often enough to call down. They donk like any gutshot, any pair, some bluffs. I end up laying down those hands on the flop very often.

I have tried to raise them but they just call and donks the turn too. They are really tough to play against. I think the idea of raise less and give it up if you don't hit and valuebet them when you hit since they call down anything should be the right move.

Don't raise QJ pre as you do against others. If you hit they gonna pay you off and if they bluff they make less money cause the pot is smaller.

How does this sound?

How do you deal with these kind of players?

[jrz1972]

My main approach against these sorts of players is to see a lot of showdowns. In the actual hand you described (A7 on a Q94 board), I might just give up, but calling down is probably okay too. I would definitely call down with A9 or 88 on that board.

When you're HU with one of these guys, that's a good time to be selectively passive with marginal holdings. They like to bluff, so let them.

With your stronger holdings, be willing to put in an extra bet that you might pass on against a more passive opponent. For instance, say you had AQ on that Q94 board, and villain donks the flop. You know he'll donk the turn if you raise, so go ahead and raise the flop, and then raise the turn donk.

The main thing, though, is to get your marginal hands to showdown cheaply. If you're not occasionally crushed at showdown, you're not showing down enough against these guys.

[jstill]

I dont like the idea of not raising QJ you could easily have them dominated with many of the holdings in their calling range, and with position not raising would be an incorrect adjustment to their play.

dont bother playing back, bluffing too much or rebluffing if they are going to show down too much (doesnt mean dont continuation bet) if they donk alot and follow on the turn wait to raise some of ur weaker tpgk hands to slap them back a bit for donkbetting/bluffing

deifnately call down some weaker made hands if they are manic dont let go of top pair if they start tryin to cr the turn alot you may have to freecard and it may induce a bluff on the river anyways. stay aggressive vs these guys but pick ur spots ur can tighten up ur steal range if you want. you can value bet some weaker hands also if they stay passive but my guess is you dont need to value bet these guys more than say a LAP so do what you normally do as far as that goes. its kind of player dependent since players with similar stats have different habits, but the idea is that ur weaker hands have more value vs these guys so respond as such, a nice trick to let them hurt themselves is occasionally going passive against them in position in HU pots.

[jstill]

jrz's last point is very important I think. people often get discouraged when they call down with the loser (natural) and think that they shouldnt have when it could easily have been the optimal decision IMO and folding vs x opponent on x board with x hand would have been much worse IMO.

[Erik W]

Good opinions.
I forgot to say that if they bluff they always 3 barrel.
If they just take a shot on the flop I peel liberally.

I should be ahead of his range with QJ, problem is that I hit less than half of my hands and they like to peel,fl,tu liberally too with Ahigh so I might need to bet all streets to take it down unimproved and they call down with 5pair all the time.

I am not a fan of not raising preflop to make them do bigger mistakes post, it is often wrong but this is one time it might be right. Often one blind comes in too so it is likely someone hit so I need to make something to win.

A maniac is much more easy to play against.

[jstill]

yah you shouldnt be 3 barrel bluffing back, generally id say if ck to 3 way bet the flop (with QJ on a 653 flop you could probably just ck and some similar ones u know one or both player will peel and take the pot down later when u show weakness) and read dependent play the streets after. make notes if they always bet/bluff the river if you ck thru the turn, bet some turn cards if they fold there. when they donk if they fire 3 barrels like that regularly with real weak hands i dont know how ur not killin em. once again going passive with ur marginal hands is a good way to let them kill themselves, also i think peeling too lightly to their donks esp in 3 way pots is probably a leak in small pots (maybe even one of ur main problems against them puttin in bets with hands that dont get to showdown sucks here obviously it comes up with missed draws and what not but ud like to minimize it). still raise preflop just cuz u only hit a favorable flop about a 3rd of the time isnt makin it unprofitable esp if its 3 or 4 to the flop and someone besides you wins the pot everytime u whiff, the pots ur winning should end up being larger than the ones ur losing all else equal. I think if u adjust to make them make mistakes in smaller pots u will lose some of ur edge over them and win less in the long run (the pots are often small enough where they are making mistakes constantly anyways), letting them be conditioned to donk, overplay weaker holdings is great for you if they arent gettin away from them when u show aggression anyways.

post some hands please

[Erik W]

[ QUOTE ]
when they donk if they fire 3 barrels like that regularly with real weak hands i dont know how ur not killin em

[/ QUOTE ]

That is the problem. They don't donkbluff all the times. It could as well be 33 on a 4TJ board when I hold 77 or A7 etc.
The often have a piece of it like a gutter or any pair and once in a while they have 46o with nothing on a K82o drawless board. That is what makes it hard.

I am probably winning against them but not enough and they take down many pots where I am ahead which will make my overall hurt even though I'm a 2BB+ winner over 100k+ hands.

It is a very hard to play opponent and it seems we should treat them and play them different than most other players, at least that is what I think.

[ QUOTE ]
gain going passive with ur marginal hands is a good way to let them kill themselves, also i think peeling too lightly to their donks esp in 3 way pots is probably a leak in small pots

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. (But) the pot is often 6sb and if he takes it down too easily with 1sb it just makes him raise his bluff frequency and that is not anything I won't. HU i often call flop and raise tu,riv depending on board and the strength of my hand.

[poker_n00b]

Erik W, on which site do you encounter these opponents? WPEX?

I have the same problem with these opponents at WPEX. The often have like 30/15, 40/20 stats in full ring game, lol.

One point I'd like to add, if not already said, check-raise much more often on turn and river out of position.

[Erik W]

Mostly WPEX and Party.

[Silverback]

[ QUOTE ]
I am probably winning against them but not enough and they take down many pots where I am ahead which will make my overall hurt even though I'm a 2BB+ winner over 100k+ hands.


[/ QUOTE ]

So not really sure what your problem is.

Just make sure you have position on them. Or choose different tables if you can't work out when best to showdown against them.