Lets talk about positon in PLO

[baboon]

I think there is a little bit of a controversy how important positon is in PLO. Negreanu for example says "There isn't a form of poker I can think of in which position plays a more significant role than in pot-limit Omaha". http://www.cardplayer.com/magazine/article/14981
Stewart Reuben is an example for the other positon as he states in his book "How good is your PLO" position is not verry important in Omaha.
Here are a few thoughts.

Marginal Hands gain in vallue by positon cause they give you the opportunity to bluff in a pot that everybody checked on the flop. Players seldom go for the checkraise in omaha cause the possabillity others will draw out are to big. if you get called you often have the advantage to see the river for free (no bet on the turn) or you can push out draws and maybe bottom trips or two pair on the turn or river if you proceed.

Position is important when the money is deep and draws have high implied odds plus you can call with a draw and pretend on the turn or river you hit if an opponent with trips checks to you. Playing draws aggressively out of positon is not verry wise cause you can get reraised (of course you can do it with a big draw).

Positon is not important when the money is shallow and everything goes all in on before or on the flop.

Any other opinions or situations you associate with positon in PLO?

[BriMc]

Position is crucial in all forms of poker. To say its not is just plain wrong. Position allows you to win more/lose less. (PERIOD!)

Thanks for posting that Negreanu hand. Its been awhile since I read that. I was on the Tony Bloom side of that had 2 weekends ago. We both made the nuts on the turn, I bet, he raised, he 3 bet, flush hits, I ship him 1500 (at least it was't 500k)

[heresjohnny]

I would agree that Omaha is the game of poker in which position plays the most important role.

[RedJoker]

Although bluffing is a very good reason for playing in position, I think there is a much more important reason for playing in position: It is very difficult to felt somebody out of position.

If you river a nut str8 or flush in position, on the river your opponent must guess if that card helped you. With the pot being much larger at this point even a half pot 'information bet' can be a costly mistake. Your raise could possibly be a bluff and many players struggle to release second nut str8s or flushes.

Playing the same hand out of position, when you hit your pat hand the board looks much scarier for your opponent. If you lead he may fold, or flat call a small bet. If you play for a check-raise, your opponent will often just check it down. This kills implied odds when playing draws out of position.

While bluffing is a consideration, it will often only win the blinds. It's important to have hands with potential in late position, they will win you the biggest pots.

[youdidwhat]

I found Daniel's hand interesting. (Sorry if this is a bit at a tangent to the thread.) I don't know if I agree with all Daniel's analysis.

Bloom's play depends in part on whether Bloom thinks it is possible Daniel has c/raised without the nuts here. I would have thought Daniel could have made the turn C/R HU with the blockers and/or a good draw, or any set.

If Bloom thinks there is a decent percentage chance of this, then Bloom's all-in sounds like the correct play. Note that Daniel himself thinks that Bloom may have been bluffing at the pot when Bloom bets the pot. They've been playing for an hour or so let's say - enough time to get inside each other's heads.

And HU there is less chance that if it is a split pot, that Daniel has as he did here a massive freeroll. So Daniel bluffing/semi-bluffing, means Bloom all-in either wins the pot there and then, or if Daniel calls, he makes him pay to draw; if Daniel has the straight, nine times out of ten (wild guess) it's a split pot.

That's probably ev+ to the point where Bloom may have been more correct to go all-in rather than call, and make a play on a board pair/diamond. Also, in the latter, since Daniel could have semi-bluffed the turn, there is no way Bloom can know whether Daniel is playing a set/flush draw/better straight draw, so any card on the river bar a complete blank is a potential disaster.

Essentially, Daniel got into the situation, HU, where he had the perfect hand to trap Bloom for his entire stack and did so. Anybody else here play the hand differently from Bloom?

[Ribbo]

Although amusingly I think that PLO8 is the game that position plays the least important role.

[guilt_trip]

Steven Reuben is very, very wrong in my opinion. Position is vital in every form of poker, and in PLO its still vital. More hands get playable closer to the button and with good hands you have to generally limp in from the early position because of your disadvantage on future streets. Also you can play draws more aggressively from the button then from up front

My view on the Negreanu hand is that Tony Bloom should call on the turn and throw it away on the river. I've lost a buy in before pushing with AKXX on a QcJcTx flop and seeing a club rolling of on the turn and get shown AcKcXX. When you raise and get re-raised or check raised than you should play your hand carefully even it is the current nuts!

[youdidwhat]

If you flat call Daniel's CR, would you bet the river board pair, repping the FH?

[PokrLikeItsProse]

That's funny, because Pot Limit and No Limit Poker, by Stewart Reuben and Bob Ciaffone, holds that pot limit forms of poker give more importance to position than limit. I could imagine that position might be less important in pot limit omaha than pot limit hold em, but I can't fathom how someone would say it is unimportant.

[guilt_trip]

[ QUOTE ]
If you flat call Daniel's CR, would you bet the river board pair, repping the FH?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, HU you've got to move at pots and you have a good opportunity to here IMO. And as Negrenu said he could have put him on 2 pair with the made straight

When that 8d rolled off though you'd have saved a goodly amount instead of pushing the turn