l1 post flop draw hand ($55reg)

[The Yugoslavian]

$55 regular...no valuable information on the players in this hand.

Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: RobMc456789 (1920)
Seat 2: Hero (2000)
Seat 3: Mattallicat1 (2060)
Seat 4: iamdondon (2000)
Seat 5: StonePoney (2000)
Seat 6: wwaapp (2000)
Seat 7: zyprexa (2100)
Seat 8: BluesBassist (2000)
Seat 9: killmekillme (1980)
Seat 10: skeeter1729 (1940)
RobMc456789 posts small blind (20)
Hero posts big blind (40)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Tc, 7c ]
Mattallicat1 folds.
iamdondon folds.
StonePoney folds.
wwaapp calls (40)
zyprexa calls (40)
BluesBassist calls (40)
killmekillme folds.
skeeter1729 folds.
RobMc456789 calls (20)
Hero checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Jc, Qc, Qh ]
RobMc456789 checks.
Hero checks.
wwaapp checks.
zyprexa checks.
BluesBassist checks.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 9s ]
RobMc456789 checks.
Hero checks.
wwaapp bets (100)
zyprexa folds.
BluesBassist folds.
RobMc456789 calls (100)
hero?

The main issue I have with this hand is that given the weak bet and weak call I'm not sure a ton of hands are paying off a club river very well. Additionally it's not clear how much to value my outs...are all the flush ones good? Are the tr8 outs tainted or up against KT/AT frequently?

On the other hand there are 400 chips in the middle and it's only 100 to call...

So how many outs do you think hero effectively has here?

And if hero calls, what bet size should be made? If SB bets should hero try to get it allin?

Yugoslav

[durron597]

I would call and I would check-call the river if I hit my straight, bet-call if I hit my flush, and check-fold if I miss.

Edit: my river bet if I hit my flush would be really small, like 250

[GtrHtr]

I would call but play to keep the pot small as much as you can from that position for the river.

[Irieguy]

Lead the flop. Makes the hand easier to play, and you harder to play against.

Irieguy

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Lead the flop. Makes the hand easier to play, and you harder to play against.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

How much are you leading for? I feel like any queen will always raise and we have a lot of people behind us.

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]
Lead the flop. Makes the hand easier to play, and you harder to play against.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought that, then I thought pot control. One way to potentially control the pot is to lead and set the bet so to speak OOP. Is that where you are going with this from a pot size perspective? Or are you leading mostly just to gain information, etc. Perhaps all of the above?

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
Lead the flop. Makes the hand easier to play, and you harder to play against.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I think I am verly likely to do that from LP (although I likely don't ever see the flop with T7s from LP but meh whatever)....as I am buying a very good shot at two cards with my flush draw and take the pot down to everyone's checks a decent % of the time.

My biggest issue is that oop and up against 4 opponents I think I may get called here by weak pps and such that will bet out the turn against me when I check non clubs, thus only allowing me to see 1 card.

I also only have 9 outs and don't think I can stand a flop raise (unless it's a minraise I guess) so if someone has a J or Q I'm likely being pushed off the hand immediately.

What kind of bet are you thinking? A 1/2 pot bet?

Yugoslav

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lead the flop. Makes the hand easier to play, and you harder to play against.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

How much are you leading for? I feel like any queen will always raise and we have a lot of people behind us.

[/ QUOTE ]

I lead for 110-160 depending on the PFAF of my opponents. With a board like this, there is more value in winning the hand before you hit your flush than after.

This hand illustrates an important concept: on the one hand, leading draws and sets alike will increase the value you get from both types of hands. On the other, checking both air and monsters will disguise your monsters and slow your opponents down. Increasing value is more important than disguising monsters or slowing opponents down as a general rule because your opponents want to call. They don't want to believe you anyway.

So, if you can cheaply lead into an ugly board with even the thinnest of draws, you are going to fare better than you would with a check-call line because you are the one dictating the types of mistakes your opponents can make (the value of betting impetus.)

If any queen will raise me off the hand, that's ok with me. I also don't mind all of the opponents behind because there aren't a lot of hand types that are calling or playing back at me here.

Anyhow, that's how I'd play it. But if I checked the flop I would be doing so because I was done with the hand... which is fine, too.

Irieguy

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]
So, if you can cheaply lead into an ugly board with even the thinnest of draws, you are going to fare better than you would with a check-call line because you are the one dictating the types of mistakes your opponents can make (the value of betting impetus.)



[/ QUOTE ]

ah, good point.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
Lead the flop. Makes the hand easier to play, and you harder to play against.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

Yikes... I think this is a huge spew.

I would get into why, but its why no one thought of it in the first place...