When do you fold your non-nuts set? (LO8)

[TMTTR]

Hero in MP with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] at a typical online low stakes game (3/6 or 2/4). Players are generally too loose but half of them have some concept of how to play post flop.

One limper, Hero raises, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, limper calls.

Flop (approx 8SB): K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Checked to hero, hero bets, button raises, [either BB or limper calls], hero calls.

Do you now check/call, check/fold if unimproved? How does the plan change if it is not the button raise but instead BB or limper who check-raises? How does the plan change if you are heads up after the flop?

I find myself calling the river too much here (justifying my action because of big pot, etc.).

[JimGil]

As soon as the board comes up hearts, you're drawing to 6 outs. I'm new to O8, but I'd check/call the flop. Someone's already got the flush. Its unlikely they'll be a low, so I'd check fold the turn if I didn't hit.

[jcx]

What to do is situation specific. Is the button straighforward or tricky? In this situation you've built a sizeable pot. If the button is capable of being tricky a reraise may be in order. This may also get the other caller(s) to fold, which might buy you outs for 1/2 the pot if you get runner runner low cards.

[jjgoldy5]

With a flopped set, you are drawing to a fullhouse or quads at 7 cards on the flop and 10 cards on the turn (3 9's, 3 4's, 1K and on the turn add 3 of the card that falls).

You likely have the pot odds to continue, and if the pot is multiway (4+ players to the turn), even to raise in order to build the pot for your draw which will hit 37% of the time.

[J. Henry Christ]

[ QUOTE ]
I find myself calling the river too much here (justifying my action because of big pot, etc.).

[/ QUOTE ]

If the flop is suited and the pot is big, there's a reason: People have flushes (unlike HE, they aren't holding just the Ace or King of the suit and drawing for a 4th card of the suit). Learn to fold the river, its too easy for people to have any two suited.

[J. Henry Christ]

[ QUOTE ]
Its unlikely they'll be a low, so I'd check fold the turn if I didn't hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Drawing to 10 outs which are basically the nuts in a large multiway pot, and you say check-fold?

4BB preflop, plus 4BB on flop = 8BB, plus a couple more on turn and maybe implied one or two on river, you are getting way more than enough odds to call a couple bets. Remember, you are drawing for the board to pair, so there will be no low--you'll scoop (and you still have a possible low draw that could be good if you miss your boat). Check-folding the turn is a disastrously bad play.

[Burdzthewurd]

Don't forget you can probably take one off on the turn if it's a low card, and especially if it's a deuce.

[TMTTR]

[ QUOTE ]
As soon as the board comes up hearts, you're drawing to 6 outs. I'm new to O8, but I'd check/call the flop. Someone's already got the flush. Its unlikely they'll be a low, so I'd check fold the turn if I didn't hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

As others have shown, its not that simple. You will have 8 or 9 outs to the boat/quads on the turn (and therefore proper pot odds to call that bet). If the card is a low card (and especially a 2) you will have outs to the low (for half the pot) as well. I don't think there is any way to fold on the turn in this situation. Even if you check-called the flop, you will likely have pot odds of 6 to 1 to call the turn...

[crashjr]

Agree. A raise is in order on the flop given the number of opponents and the size of the pot. Raising might chase out better backdoor low draws buying outs for half the pot, and if you miss on the turn you have 10 outs to boat/quad on the river, along with the backdoor low.