Reopening the betting in the Foxwoods $1-2NL

AKQJ10 · #1 08-10-2006, 08:21 PM

I'll try to be brief since it's not that interesting an anecdote, but it does show how dealers in large cardrooms can be ill informed.

I pick up kings and after the usual ritual of raise to $15 or so and pick up a few callers, I get a flop that with low cards but semi coordinated (532 I believe). I bet, let's say $25, and get a call then the short stack raises me all-in for another, let's say, $22.

I don't believe this reopens the betting at Foxwoods, but I'm not about to give up expectation to my own nittishness when I'm not even sure I know the rules. So I ask the dealer, does this reopen the betting? I'm told that it does, so I apologetically push all in for another $50 or so on top.

The caller says he doesn't think that betting is reopened -- not sure if he's just taking a self-serving position or actually knows the rule. As it happens he calls me anyway with who knows what, the dealer deals out the board, none of the draws hit and I stack $250 or so. Standard $1-2 hand. I probably would have taken the rest of the chips on the turn -- fold a draw? Why would you do that? -- but it did work to my advantage. I believe honoring the rules of the game, but when the dealer tells me the rule is something in my favor I don't feel obligated to stop the game to argue against it.

But the point is, when I got a chance I discreetly asked a couple of floors chatting with each other. One of them said, "Yeah, it doesn't reopen the betting but the dealers don't know the rules." So there ya go.

I should probably post a summary of my conversation with Mark Rathbun, one of the shift managers who says he lurks on 2+2 occasionally. (Hi, Mark! Good talking with you!) I get the sense that they realize that dealer training is an issue and are working on it.

Scorpion · #2 08-10-2006, 08:27 PM

When I have played at those tables I have gotten the response; "if it is more than half the bet it is a raise". Other times I have heard it is not a raise. They have no clue there. I will be there all next week. PM me and I'll meet up with you some day.

AKQJ10 · #3 08-10-2006, 08:31 PM

Good hearing from you!

You're right -- nut grinding at $1-2NL really is the way to go.

Bill King · #4 08-11-2006, 10:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
But the point is, when I got a chance I discreetly asked a couple of floors chatting with each other. One of them said, "Yeah, it doesn't reopen the betting but come back in 5 mins and we'll give you a different answer! " So there ya go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Man of Means · #5 08-11-2006, 10:59 AM

At FW 1/2 NL I got shut down when I tried to re-raise all-in over a shortstack that went all-in.

I had AKs in the SB and raised to 20, the BB reraised AI for $35 total, a loose aggressive frat boy (LAFB) called, and when I tried to go over the top (for $150 effectively), LAFB called the floor. I was denied the reraise and LAFB flopped a King high flush; I folded to his $50 bet. BB had KJo

I posted this hand a while ago and posters verified that unless the reraise is the amount of the original raise (here, $15 < $18), then it's a call and does not reopen betting.

Rules are different in LIMIT though. (1/2 bet or more all-in is a raise)

AKQJ10 · #6 08-11-2006, 07:15 PM

It's dependent on the cardroom, but the official Foxwoods rule is that a [re]raise all-in for less than the amount of the previous bet or [re]raise does not reopen the betting.

Bill King is right, though: Ask 10 there, get 11 answers. Like I said, their management seems to know that inconsistency is a problem.

tom10167 · #7 08-11-2006, 07:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's dependent on the cardroom, but the official Foxwoods rule is that a [re]raise all-in for less than the amount of the previous bet or [re]raise does not reopen the betting.

Bill King is right, though: Ask 10 there, get 11 answers. Like I said, their management seems to know that inconsistency is a problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true in NL. In LHE it's a 50% rule.

ThinkQuick · #8 08-12-2006, 12:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[100% to reopen] is true in NL. In LHE it's a 50% rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

This has been discussed here before, and it is the correct determination. But I have definitely been in situations where the dealer thinks it is different and I have no problem using it to my advantage.

tom10167 · #9 08-12-2006, 12:27 AM

I don't really understand why it's not the same for both, either 50% or 100%.

AKQJ10 · #10 08-12-2006, 12:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This has been discussed here before, and it is the correct determination.

[/ QUOTE ]

For Foxwoods or in general? GSIHE pretty clearly states that there is no universal "correct determination". I'm too lazy to hunt down Robert's Rules although I once read a Card Player column by Ciaffone more or less on this topic.