live 10/20 game - how to play a set

[calc]

as the title said its a live 10/20 game. The table is full of fishy players. The player to my right is the only player I respect and has been playing solid agressive so far.

ok so I'm in the BB with 66. There are 4 limpers, the SB (good player) raises I call and so does everyone else.

Pot is $120. Flop comes A 10 6 with a flush draw. SB checks and I bet, someone in middle position raises, two players fold, then SB reraises, I cap it and everyone calls.

Pot is now $220. Turn card is blank, and the SB bets. Now I put him on a higher set. I just call. I figure I can't protect my hand by raising as the flush draw calls anyway and if he does have a higher set he is sure to reraise making it very expensive for me to get to the river. Anyway, I just call and so does everyone else.

Pot is now about $300. River is another blank SB checks to me and I bet. Everyone calls. I show my set and take down a $400 pot.

Did I misplay my hand on the turn?

[BenA]

I hate giving cheap cards to... um, how many other opponents beside SB are there? If I were to make a logical deduction from the river, it would be 3, but I'm guessing actually 2. However, in this hand, as you said, you can't fold a flush draw, and other than AA or TT (or whatever the blank is), you are ahead. So I don't mind the turn call, but I'd much rather raise. Against this possibly good opponent, you are right to be concerned when he bets the turn into (3?) players OOP. BUT, he could have AK, AT, a flush draw, etc... I don't think a raise is bad either for buying position, control, and value against his range of hands. This is read dependant (including reads on other players for likelihood of them folding/paying off/etc.).

[XmasXmas]

ack. since it was in paragraph form, i read the results. please don't post results.

yes you misplayed your hand. it's going to have to take more than 1 street of action before i decide i'm behind on a semi-coordinated A high flop.

it's hard to tell what that check is for by the pf raiser. since he raised, it's impossible for him to really tell where a bet is going to come from, if one will come at all. my guess he was more interested in building a pot than he was in protecting one or extracting value.

saying, "the flush draws will call anyway" is silly. you raise for value then.

[BenA]

Yes, Xmas, I agree. I sort of meandered around this in my first reply, but if he's got a flush draw, its a strict value raise. Plus, as I pointed out earlier, its value against other opponents too plus buying position and control. Before, I said 'I don't mind the turn call,' but I thought about it for a little bit, and now I do. Its a mistake I usually don't make cause I just like to pump the turn... but that's lost me lots of money in other situations, so I guess it evens out [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[bernie]

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Did I misplay my hand on the turn?

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Yes. You put him on an overset way too quick. Which actually points to your range a bit in how you put him on the hand.

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Pot is now $220. Turn card is blank, and the SB bets. Now I put him on a higher set. I just call. I figure I can't protect my hand by raising as the flush draw calls anyway

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Ever hear of a value bet? You can't make any money off 'em when they miss their draw.

b

[calc]

yeah I know I will happily raise against flush draws on the turn every day of the week. but the reason I didn't this time (rightly or wrongly) is because I thought I was already beat by the SB. So, its not that I don't WANT the flush draws to call my raise, its just that I realise I will not make a flush draw fold (particularly these fishy players in this size pot) therefore I am not protecting my hand by raising. So, since I am not changing my chances of winning or losing the pot by raising the turn I didn't want to risk a reraise from the SB making it $60 to get to the river. And given the preflop raise, the check raise on the flop and lead out on the turn into a large field and the fact he was a solid player made it a good possibility in my mind he was on a higher set.

Anyway, I agree that a raise on the turn is the right play.

[XmasXmas]

there's a reason why raising is generally the correct play on the turn.

the number of hands you're ahead of that could be played this aggressively by the sb (AK, AT, suited broadways for the gutshot and flush draw) vs. the number of hands you're behind is much greater. you factor in the fact that all those other players are in the hand means that you're losing a lot of bets from the other players when you're good vs. saving an extra bet or two of your own when you're behind.

if you were HU, i could see a more conservative approach. but when there are that many players still in, you're killing your profits by not raising.

[TripleH68]

I understand how you feel, since you bet and capped the flop. And then SB still bet into you on the turn.

But you should not give too much credit to raises/reraises on the small streets.
And the extra player in the pot(possible flush draw) makes it more correct to raise the turn.

[Mygtar]

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The table is full of fishy players. The player to my right is the only player I respect and has been playing solid agressive so far.


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There are 4 limpers, the SB (good player) raises I call and so does everyone else.


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Turn card is blank, and the SB bets.

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With the above information I think he bets the turn with a FD, top pair, two pair, or set. I think a raise would have been the correct route. Even if the other people are on a flush draw you still have 10 outs to a FH or Quads.

[bernie]

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yeah I know I will happily raise against flush draws on the turn every day of the week. but the reason I didn't this time (rightly or wrongly) is because I thought I was already beat by the SB. So, its not that I don't WANT the flush draws to call my raise, its just that I realise I will not make a flush draw fold (particularly these fishy players in this size pot) therefore I am not protecting my hand by raising. So, since I am not changing my chances of winning or losing the pot by raising the turn I didn't want to risk a reraise from the SB making it $60 to get to the river. And given the preflop raise, the check raise on the flop and lead out on the turn into a large field and the fact he was a solid player made it a good possibility in my mind he was on a higher set.

Anyway, I agree that a raise on the turn is the right play.

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I wouldn't start worrying about a higher set until he 3 bets the turn. If he has it, that's poker. You can't be afraid to lose some money in these spots. More often than not, you're in the lead.

b