$1/$2 NL, $300 max: Brilliant? Unethical? Wow, strangest hand ever.

etotheipi · #1 08-06-2006, 10:03 AM

This is probably one of the most interesting situations I've enountered in a live game (and extremely read-dependent). This was at the $1/$2 NL, $100-$300 buy-in live game at The Orleans in Vegas. I'm not sure that the way it turned out was particularly ethical. It also may not have been a good play. Pay close attention to the story and tell me what you think.

Hero ($350): moderately-tight, moderately-aggressive image
Button ($70): not crazy, but certainly not tight, fairly ag.
BB ($250): loose preflop trying to catch a hand against fish, but very tight after the flop.

I raise in MP w/ A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] to $12 (standard). LP calls, Button calls, BB calls.

Flop is Jack-high, approximately J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

BB checks, I bet $30 (I probably should've bet more). LP folds, button pushes all-in for $54. Not realizing that the BB still has cards, I say "call" immediately. Button turns over his cards showing both cards, K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB makes noise about being still in the hand. I apologize and the button grabs his hand and turns it back over. I then realized that the BB had intended to checkraise and that's why he was making noise about being left out. Now here's the key: the BB was at the opposite end of the table and misread the button's cards. Two or three times he said something about the button's "kings." This was a sincere error: the BB thought the button turned over K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and no one said anything. The BB appears frustrated about the fact that I'm strong and he doesn't know what i was going to do. He starts counting chips and finally decides to call the bet of $54 anyway.

Here's another interesting detail: amidst the drama of the hand, no one noticed that the button hadn't pushed enough to reopen the betting. I honestly didn't realize it until long after this hand. Here's my thought process while the BB is deciding to call: the BB thinks the button has KK and he thinks that I think the button has KK. Seeing his frustration and knowing his tight tendencies post-flop, and knowing I have the button dominated, I waited for him to call and immediately pushed all-in.

I won't reveal the results yet, but I can't stop thinking about this hand. Should someone have told him what the button's cards were? Should I have been the one to do it? Would anyone else have done this? When I made the all-in knowing that the BB probably had KK beat, I had one of those donk moments thinking to myself "Was that really a good idea?"

Comments?

Kovner · #2 08-06-2006, 03:34 PM

If he misread a hand, that's his fault. If someone outload says "the board is AJT" when its AJ9, is someone responsible for telling him? This isn't even a borderline ethical decision.

Onto the actual strategy: Why does it matter what the BB thinks the button has or what he thinks you think it is? The button is all-in and you only have to call 24 more before the main pot action is locked up. For example, if the BB knows that the button has KK but some reason decided to call the 54 anyway and then you push, it makes no difference what the button has. It only matters if he beats you. If he had QQ here and somehow knew you had AJ he should call your push even though he knows he doesn't have the best hand of the 3 players.

What's the point of the push anyway? Are you trying to get him to fold a better hand or betting for value? Neither really make sense.

Also, when some guy is muttering about being worried about a hand, he is usually acting and probably has that hand beat. This is especially true at 1/2 with weak players. It isn't a 100% reliable tell, but reliable enough that I'm now trying to keep the pot as small as possible (folding if neccesary) and definitely avoid trying to get the guy to fold.

Ohh, and its 1/2. Don't try and make outrageously tricky plays. Just play tight, catch some hands and bust the players that can't lay down hands (most of them).

aceswild83 · #3 08-06-2006, 03:41 PM

i guess what he's saying is that since BB knows you know he can beat KK BB knows you have a good hand when you re-raise and might fold AA for example.

Kovner · #4 08-06-2006, 04:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i guess what he's saying is that since BB knows you know he can beat KK BB knows you have a good hand when you re-raise and might fold AA for example.

[/ QUOTE ]
The side pot logic I applied to the opponent applies to the hero: Hero doesn't have to be afraid of the all-in player, so he doesn't have to have KK beat to push.
Anyways, its 1/2NL at the Orleans. This guy isn't folding AA.

thedustbustr · #5 08-06-2006, 04:36 PM

this should never happen. the dealer should re-expose the shown hand to prevent this sort of thing.

etotheipi · #6 08-06-2006, 06:05 PM

As I said, this situation was extremely read-dependent. One of the reasons I pushed on this guy was because he is super tight post flop. I'd seen him fold top pair twice and freak out holding a straight when there was a potential flush on board. He is the kinda player that looks for an excuse to fold when there's a lot of action. Just because this is 1/2 at the Orleans doesn't mean everyone is a loose cannon (though there were plenty of them there).

And aceswild83 said it right. Because the BB thinks I think the button has KK, he thinks that I must have KK beat if I'm going to move in for the pot. Therefore, I must have a hand good enough to beat KK and a lot of hands BB could be calling with. His physical reactions/tells during his decision indicated he had a good hand but not the nuts, and that's why it took him so long to decide to call.

etotheipi · #7 08-06-2006, 08:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What's the point of the push anyway? Are you trying to get him to fold a better hand or betting for value? Neither really make sense.

Also, when some guy is muttering about being worried about a hand, he is usually acting and probably has that hand beat. This is especially true at 1/2 with weak players. It isn't a 100% reliable tell, but reliable enough that I'm now trying to keep the pot as small as possible (folding if neccesary) and definitely avoid trying to get the guy to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I'm trying to make him fold a better hand. His reactions were not an act. He really thought the BB had KK, and I believed from his reaction he had that hand beat (and thus, my hand).

And just because this is $1/$2 NL doesn't mean everyone is a donkey. If you've ever played a good live NL game with a lot of terrible players, you'll notice that there's usually a couple of tight, semi-decent players who are sitting there just waiting to catch hands to bust the donks (but don't want to risk a lot of money doing so). Some of them are quite decent. This is not online. This situation couldn't arise online and the quality of the read would be similarly impossible.

bdams19 · #8 08-06-2006, 08:28 PM

results? imo, you did nothing wrong here.

Percula · #9 08-06-2006, 09:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
this should never happen. the dealer should re-expose the shown hand to prevent this sort of thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, the dealer should not touch a live hand ever, unless they intend to kill it.

All players in the hand had equal information, too bad one of them was not paying attention, cry me a river, welcome to live poker. Anything the dealer would do at this point would be interference. In similar fashion NO ONE else should say a word, otherwise they are in violation of the "one player to a hand" rule. Now that would be a real mess for the floor to sort out.

To the OP... Depending on the house rules, as lots of little rooms, or rooms new to NL still have the limit raising requirements for re-opening the action. I have never played NL at the O, so I can't say if they are using the right rule for NL raises or not.

You should be VERY careful in a situation like this, if the other player had his act together at all, he would have called the floor, had your AI disallowed and nailed you on the turn.

etotheipi · #10 08-06-2006, 09:15 PM

After my push, the BB thought for a few seconds with a look of pain and frustration and then mucked his hand. The moment I turned over AJ and the Button turned over KJ, the BB jumped out of his chair with disgust and started saying "OMG he had KJ? AJ?? WTF I folded two pair to that $#!+?!?"

The BB went on serious tilt. He left the table for 10 minutes, then came back and pissed away most of his money on the next hand couple hands. He had $65 left, and raised to $12. I picked up AK and reraised to $40 he threw the rest of his chips in. He had T6s and won. I said "Nice hand...I guess" and he freaked out on me "Oh, you're one to speak??? You're the crazy a$$hole that reraises three hundred dollars with one pair. WTF is wrong with you??" I actually became mildly scared of the kid. I was glad I had to leave in 10 minutes.

That hand really pissed off the BB. It was then that I started to question whether there was anything wrong with what I did. If someone had clarified that the button had KJ the hand would've played out much differently, and not necessarily in my favor.