($10) I get in trouble from the sb

[QTip]

Hi. Never posted here before, but I'm a limit player trying to learn NL SNGs. I've gathered a lot of info and posts, and I'm just getting started. So, please just flame away. I have a friend helping me learn, but this is only my 2nd one since having any speck of knowledge.

Villain is unknown

PartyPoker, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t710)
UTG+1 (t230)
MP1 (t570)
MP2 (t1365)
CO (t2770)
Button (t820)
Hero (t775)
BB (t760)

Preflop: Hero is in SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls t30, <font color="gray">UTG+1 folds</font>, MP1 calls t30, <font color="gray">MP2 folds</font>, <font color="gray">CO folds</font>, Button calls t30, Hero calls t15, BB checks

Flop: (t150) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, <font color="red">Button bets t80</font>, Hero calls t80, <font color="gray">BB folds</font>, <font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP1 folds</font>

I guess folding here may be prudent, since I'm yet to see how the others will respond. Coming from limit, folding a four flush on the flop gives my hives...

Turn: (t310) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

What's hero's plan here? Does a donk bet have any value here? A check/raise?...seems I need some read

Let's say I check and villain bets 275, am I done?

[Onaflag]

Fold PF. It can only cause trouble when you see a flop with that hand. I'm also a former limit player and it took me a lot of money to unlearn the value of draws. The quicker you unlearn, the better IMHO.

Onaflag..........

[QTip]

yeah...ok. When I called, I remember my friend saying something like:

No Drawing Hands
No Drawing Hands
No Drawing Hands
No Drawing Hands
No Drawing Hands
No Drawing Hands
No Drawing Hands
No Drawing Hands

So, after I get involved, any advice for postflop?

[Onaflag]

[ QUOTE ]
So, after I get involved, any advice for postflop?

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Not from me. I'm a crappy post flop player. That's why I play SNGs. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Onaflag.........

[Prodigy54321]

I'm pretty sure this is a call preflop especially since at the $11s you can usually see a draw for a min bet.

call on the flop is fine for implied odds.

I'd call the turn for anything t175 or lower. You've probably gained a few outs or may have the best hand already, but your implied odds are worse out OOP on the river. If you hit the river, You'd probably have to push which (if the villain is decent will see that you probably it a flush..although that's not likely in the $11s and might be called by high pair) but you can't check and hope for another bet.

I hate the idea of donking or check/raising anywhere in this hand. I used to be a low limit player and sometimes think about doing this. but the main goal when calling this hand from SB early on is to see draws cheaply, get a lot of chips when you hit but lose only a small amount of chips when you miss.

a check/raise or donk might be slightly +cEV but early on in the game you need more than just slight +cEV since you are one of the best players in the tournament and have more +EV from just having chips

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd call the turn for anything t175 or lower. You've probably gained a few outs or may have the best hand already, but your implied odds are worse out OOP on the river. If you hit the river, You'd probably have to push which (if the villain is decent will see that you probably it a flush..although that's not likely in the $11s and might be called by high pair) but you can't check and hope for another bet.



[/ QUOTE ]

So you're already down to 665 chips after calling the flop bet by the button, and you are considering calling up to 175 more in check/calling the turn which takes you down to less than 500 chips. What is the plan for the river?

I totally disagree with this line.

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd call the turn for anything t175 or lower. You've probably gained a few outs or may have the best hand already, but your implied odds are worse out OOP on the river. If you hit the river, You'd probably have to push which (if the villain is decent will see that you probably it a flush..although that's not likely in the $11s and might be called by high pair) but you can't check and hope for another bet.



[/ QUOTE ]

So you're already down to 665 chips after calling the flop bet by the button, and you are considering calling up to 175 more in check/calling the turn which takes you down to less than 500 chips. What is the plan for the river?

I totally disagree with this line.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK i'm going to stop he and say that I am also somewhat new to these games, but I Still think that the flop call is the right move.

At the higher buy-ins I wouldn't suggest check/calling up to t175 on the turn and probably not even the t80 on the flop, but I think it is the best move in the $11s since a check/raise or lead bet might be called by low pair and your push on a hit might be called by a mid or high pair.

I think that on average at the end of this hand you are down to t500 about 60% of the time or up to t1200-t1600 about 40%. I agree that t300 lost is worth more than t300 won, but there is a lot to gain from this hand and I think it's too much to give up for t80 on the flop

The turn call I think its much more debatable and might suggest lowing that call threshhold to t150 or lower, but still think it's callable

[crookedhat99]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold PF. It can only cause trouble when you see a flop with that hand. I'm also a former limit player and it took me a lot of money to unlearn the value of draws. The quicker you unlearn, the better IMHO.



Onaflag..........

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be a horrible preflop fold. He's getting a billion to one for a billionth of his stack.

[Onaflag]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold PF. It can only cause trouble when you see a flop with that hand. I'm also a former limit player and it took me a lot of money to unlearn the value of draws. The quicker you unlearn, the better IMHO.



Onaflag..........

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This would be a horrible preflop fold. He's getting a billion to one for a billionth of his stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm.....I wouldn't call it horrible at all and your math is a tad off. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] I don't see a problem completing and hoping for a monster.

Completing with the intention of seeing a draw through can and often will deplete your stack enough that you'll think twice about getting married to a draw again under these conditions.

I'm still folding and if that's a tad too tight, that's fine. It could probably swing either way anyway.

Onaflag...........

[Slim Pickens]

A big difference between NL SNG's and limit ring is that your implied odds will dictate everything here whereas you're really looking more at pot odds in limit ring. Anyway, the button's bet could really mean anything, so I think you should be folding that flop or putting a big check-raise. Your jack and eight may or may not be live. Your flush is only J-high. When you make a hand it will be poorly disguised.

If you do call, donking the turn only serves to scare him. I actually think you're ahead here a fair amount of the time now. Check-call small bets, but 275 is too much to call with second pair. You could consider semi-bluffing the turn, but I thin k you're better off doing that on the flop if that's the line you want to take.