beginner mind boggling question

rebuyboy · #1 08-04-2006, 06:02 AM

What is a situation in poker where after the turn is dealt, two hole cards will make the nuts, and another set of two hole cards will not make the nuts, but it will make a better poker hand? Note that these two hands are seperate situations.

TomTom · #2 08-04-2006, 06:35 AM

This is the situation called "nonsense."

QuickLearner · #3 08-04-2006, 06:56 AM

Are you talking about when you have the nuts on the turn but end up getting beaten after the river? It happens all the time. For instance, you hold the top 2 cards of a straight like KQ and a [4 9 10 J] board. If there are 2 hearts on that board and the third heart falls on the river, your nut straight is no longer the nuts.

Grunch · #4 08-04-2006, 08:53 AM

It's possible on the flop for one opponent to have a set (being the nuts) and for another opponent to have a 15-out draw, which makes him a favorite to win. But that's on the flop, not the turn. On the turn, the 15-out draw is a 2:1 dog.

AKQJ10 · #5 08-04-2006, 09:27 AM

Against a set in hold 'em I don't think you can have a 15 out draw.
9 flush + 6 straight - one pair card on turn = 14.
9 flush + 6 straight - two pair cards on river = 13.

The answer is Omaha (where the "made hand" often can trail a 20-out draw). Less likely, it's a misstated SF draw with two cards to come. The SF draw is a 2:1 favorite over TPTK but only 42% against the set.

In fact given the way the original problem is stated, "What is a situation in poker where after the turn is dealt...?" Omaha is plainly the answer. Stud and draw variants don't have turn cards, and the OP is careful to say "two hole cards." A huge wrap plus some flush outs is a solid favorite over top set. The latter is just another drawing hand.

I like the "brainteaser" for one reason, though. It reminds everyone that POKER IS NOT A SYNONYM FOR HOLD 'EM.

notevenhere · #6 08-04-2006, 11:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Against a set I don't think you can have a 15 out draw.
9 flush + 6 straight - one pair card on turn = 14.
9 flush + 6 straight - two pair cards on river = 13.

I think OP is mistating his brainteaser. It's either Omaha (where the "made hand" often can trail a 20-out draw) or it's a SF draw with two cards to come. The SF draw is a 2:1 favorite over TPTK but only 42% against the set.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you can also be drawing to a higher set.

2461Badugi · #7 08-04-2006, 11:57 AM

It's called "hi/lo".

FeNeF · #8 08-04-2006, 02:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's possible on the flop for one opponent to have a set (being the nuts) and for another opponent to have a 15-out draw, which makes him a favorite to win.

[/ QUOTE ]
no it's not

jackaaron · #9 08-04-2006, 02:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What is a situation in poker where after the turn is dealt, two hole cards will make the nuts, and another set of two hole cards will not make the nuts, but it will make a better poker hand? Note that these two hands are seperate situations.

[/ QUOTE ]
The OP is only talking about the turn, not the river. Now, if you have the nuts on the turn (let's say it's a strait even if there is a flush draw) you currently have the nuts. Someone could be drawing to a better hand. But, at that point (and the OP didn't say we were considering the river) there is no "better hand." Also, when the OP says that these two hands are separate situations, this makes the entire post even more fishy.

Anyhow, if you have the nuts on the turn, there isn't a better hand (on the turn) therefore, this situation doesn't exist.

Lastly, let's say we're talking about Omaha, or O Hi/Lo, even IF someone had so many outs that they are a favorite to win come the river, you still have the BEST hand AND the nuts ON THE TURN. Again, someone can be drawing to a better hand on teh river, and even if they were somehow favored (which with only one card to come, they would have to have a tremendous amount of outs because the LEAST nuts on the turn would be trips.

AKQJ10 · #10 08-04-2006, 05:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Lastly, let's say we're talking about Omaha, or O Hi/Lo, even IF someone had so many outs that they are a favorite to win come the river, you still have the BEST hand AND the nuts ON THE TURN. Again, someone can be drawing to a better hand on teh river, and even if they were somehow favored (which with only one card to come, they would have to have a tremendous amount of outs because the LEAST nuts on the turn would be trips.

[/ QUOTE ]

(Emphasis added.)

I'm replying to an incomplete sentence, but if I understand this excerpt it's implying that it's somehow hypothetical that a nut hand could be an underdog in Omaha with one card to come. It's not hypothetical at all. The example I linked above demonstrates this in a way that should make those unfamiliar with Omaha sit up and take notice:

[ QUOTE ]
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1875336
pokenum -o kc qh 9h 8c - jd js 3s 4d -- jh th 3c 2c
Omaha Hi: 40 enumerated boards containing 3c 2c Jh Th
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kc 8c Qh 9h 26 65.00 14 35.00 0 0.00 0.650
Js 3s Jd 4d 14 35.00 26 65.00 0 0.00 0.350

[/ QUOTE ]

In this case any ace (4), king (3), queen (3), nine (3), eight (3), seven (4), non-pair heart (5), or non-pair club (5) will win the pot for the non-nut hand. That's a 30-outer.

Which is the "better" hand? Well, if you think it's the nut hand, let's play 100 Omaha hands where I'll give you the better hand, I'll take the worse hand, I'll lay out the four community cards as described then shuffle up the stub, and we'll just play the turn and river betting rounds.

To poker players who want to maximize their EV in dollars, the better hand is the one with more equity, not the one that presently ranks higher on the hand rankings chart.