Checking turn with outs - when to use?

[Commie]

So here's a hand of mine that was reviewed recently:

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Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

River: (5.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 6.25 BB

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This is when the conversation arose about checking behind the turn with outs, and how neither one of us knew when to use it [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

If you have a lot of outs on the turn, when do you check and when do you bet?

Here were my arguments for betting and for checking:

Bet:
1. I would probably still want to showdown my A-high hand, so I bet turn for a free showdown if I don't improve.
2. If I improve on the river I could bet again for more value.
3. I might make my opponent fold right there on the turn.

Check:
1. Get to see a free card.
2. Might induce a bluff on the river, and if I improve to a straight then I'll get an extra bet out of my opponent.
3. I won't get c/r and have to pay 2 to see the river.

I'm also not completely sure how accurately I could compute the EV of both betting and checking, since my read on my opponent wasn't that great.

Any help would be appreciated, thanks [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ILOVEPOKER929]

You have the right metal framework to deal with this situaion. Now all you have to do is apply it. Against non-passive players, checking the turn and calling the river will usually be the best line. Against passive players betting the turn and checking the river unimproved will usually be the optimal line. With no read, choose the strategy that best fits the game texture you are in.

[lank4ever]

While you are probably correct for your games at 1/2 I think there are very few players that you would call non-passive.

Therefore I think betting here is almost always the right play because,

1. The % of time you get checkraised here at 1/2 is low. It goes up with every level you move up.
2. Fewer people will bluff hopeless hands at 1/2 so you are not going to catch as many bluffs on the river if you check the turn.
3. People peel a LOT more at 1/2. The BB peeling here sometimes means he has two cards most of which you are ahead of.

Also, you seem to say as a plus for checking that if you improve you will get an extra bet, and that is not true. If you improve you only have the possibility of getting the same amount of bets as you would have by betting. That only happens if you check the turn he bets the river when you improve AND calls your raise.

Which will happen but won't always happen, and you will almost never get more bets than if you bet it down.



Checking with outs at 1/2 should probably be reserved for multiway pots or pots against people whom you know will check raise here. In HU pots where you stand a fairly good chance of being ahead ALWAYS bet.

[krishan]

You didn't mention fold equity anywhere. Shouldn't that be a consideration? Or are we assuming we have some?

Krishan

[lank4ever]

I don't think you ever get a better hand to fold, but we can fold a lot of hands with outs against us which is why I feel strongly that HU when you have outs you should bet.

[shpanko]

[ QUOTE ]
While you are probably correct for your games at 1/2 I think there are very few players that you would call non-passive.

Therefore I think betting here is almost always the right play because,

1. The % of time you get checkraised here at 1/2 is low. It goes up with every level you move up.
2. Fewer people will bluff hopeless hands at 1/2 so you are not going to catch as many bluffs on the river if you check the turn.
3. People peel a LOT more at 1/2. The BB peeling here sometimes means he has two cards most of which you are ahead of.

Also, you seem to say as a plus for checking that if you improve you will get an extra bet, and that is not true. If you improve you only have the possibility of getting the same amount of bets as you would have by betting. That only happens if you check the turn he bets the river when you improve AND calls your raise.

Which will happen but won't always happen, and you will almost never get more bets than if you bet it down.



Checking with outs at 1/2 should probably be reserved for multiway pots or pots against people whom you know will check raise here. In HU pots where you stand a fairly good chance of being ahead ALWAYS bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a very good analysis, flop peels in the 1/2 6 max games really mean nothing. Players peel here with KJo, Ax, and tons more hands that are drawing slim against you. As quoted above 1/2 6 max players are in general passive unless you have a read otherwise. Thus I wouldn't expect a check/raise and in general you should be able to check the river down UI.

Looks like in this specific hand that youre opponent hit two pair or decided to donk the river with his ten or nine. In this case it's an easy fold IMO and should the river have been a 3 or an 8 you would've gotten 3 BB's on the turn and river as opposed to just 2 (maybe less) if you had checked the turn behind. So I think you played the hand perfectly.