3rd street razz strategy question

[dboy23]

Ok, this comes up a lot. Lets say in razz I have (A3)5 and a 6 raises on 3rd. Everyone else folds to me. BI has a K and will fold 98% of the time. Should I reraise this? Just call? My thoughts are that I have a very small equity edge, but it is an edge nonetheless even if he has A2 in the hole. Then again I may be giving away my hand. If I just call, when I catch good he may put me on maybe a 7 or 8 in the hole and calldown with a bad 7.

What do you guys think is the best play here?

[theDetroitKid]

depends on who play against.
if its some donk who cant read worth a [censored] then raise.
if not, consider calling.

[Turn Prophet]

Interesting, as Sklansky lists a situation like this in many of his "Advanced Strategy" books. He suggests that if you're heads up with a bad opponent and have only a slightly better hand you shouldn't reraise his opening raise, because he would then be correct to call an additional bet on 4th street if you both catch bad.

With a potential wheel against a truly bad player, though, I think raising is frequently the best play.

[theDetroitKid]

Razz (7-card Stud A-5 Low): 500000 sampled outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac 5c 3c 254027 50.81 244766 48.95 1207 0.24 0.509
Ah 6h 2h 244766 48.95 254027 50.81 1207 0.24 0.491

really not pushing much of an edge with a35 vs a26.
depends on what you want to accomplish i guess.
if you think he will call on 4th when he shouldnt it would be a bigger mistake by him if you just called on 3rd.

if you are playing a good player calling prob would be best since if you catch an A or a 3 on 4th and he catchs a big or pairs, he will give you less credit for pairing.

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting, as Sklansky lists a situation like this in many of his "Advanced Strategy" books.

[/ QUOTE ]

"An example from Razz" [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Damn, I didn't know you could actually apply that example to razz itself!

[dboy23]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting, as Sklansky lists a situation like this in many of his "Advanced Strategy" books. He suggests that if you're heads up with a bad opponent and have only a slightly better hand you shouldn't reraise his opening raise, because he would then be correct to call an additional bet on 4th street if you both catch bad.

With a potential wheel against a truly bad player, though, I think raising is frequently the best play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok well, lets say I call and we both catch a king on 4th. What is my line now? We are still dead even if he has perfect in the hole, but I'm probably a decent ways ahead if he is playing fishy starters.

[dboy23]

[ QUOTE ]
depends on who play against.
if its some donk who cant read worth a [censored] then raise.
if not, consider calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if this guy is someone who keeps showing down a J in the hole, I should reraise. It is also possible he has a (75)6 or something marginal like that too.

Razz (7-card Stud A-5 Low): 500000 sampled outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac 5c 3c 277824 55.56 221303 44.26 873 0.17 0.557
7s 6s 5s 221303 44.26 277824 55.56 873 0.17 0.443

Razz (7-card Stud A-5 Low): 500000 sampled outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac 5c 3c 355970 71.19 143373 28.67 657 0.13 0.713
Js 6s 5s 143373 28.67 355970 71.19 657 0.13 0.287

So if he is a good player the edge is tiny even giving him marginal hole cards. But if he is fishy I'm pretty far ahead.

There is also a possibility that he knows I am tight and is trying for a steal with less than optimal hole cards. This happens often. Coming back to my original thought. No matter what he has in the hole I am ahead, so a raise gets me sklansky bucks (more like cents) regardless. It nets me lots of sklansky bucks if my opponent doesnt have great hole cards. I lean towards a raise to try and pot commit the fish. Does the extra money make it correct for me to peel 4th if I brick? Is it ever correct to peel against a strong opponent when you brick and they catch seemingly good? I'm thinking it may need to be multiway and you have to have 3 to a wheel to do this.

[Eddie901]

Re-raise everytime. But then I'll often re-raise with a 7 in the hole, too. Or even with a 7 up. As someone else says, you then have odds to call after bricking on 4th.

Don't let anyone else in cheap. As the bring-in, I often call the complete with two babies in the hole.

[bobman0330]

I've been thinking about this situation quite a bit lately.

Against a player who will peel incorrectly if you catch good and he bricks, it's very important to just call. Whoever just said that you should 3-bet so you can call on 4th is incorrect, usually. Drawing when behind is fun, but not as fun as winning money off of weak opponents.

Against a good player, I would consider the following:
-If villain might not have a 3-card hand, ALWAYS 3-bet.
-if he's trickier or better than you, be more inclined to raise
-if your high card is in the hole, be more inclined to raise
-if your hand is much better than his, due to the smallness of the cards in it, the cards that are out, and the door cards, be more inclined to raise
-if the ante is large, be more inclined to raise, particularly if there's anyone still in who might have a playable or nearly playable hand.
-against a player who is too tight and too susceptible to bluffs, be more inclined to raise.

[wahooriver]

Disclaimer - I have played around 10k hands.

1. I might raise to make certain the K does not limp in. I always prefer heads up in Razz.

2. Then, I am not certain about the right answer otherwise.

The advantage of raising is that you probably have an edge.

The disadvantage is that if you raise, many players will more likely fold if they miss and you hit. I believe the answer depends on the opponent and your table image. When you raise you are giving clues about your holdings. I prefer a confused opponent - but as the answers suggest, they key is playing your opponent rather than the cards.