River fold top pair

worm33 · #1 01-22-2006, 04:15 AM

PP 15-30, I have not played this game much so theres a lot of players I don't have stats on, the Villian being one of them. From the few hands i've seen of him looked like he was probably solid (later after 50 hands he was 17-9.)

I have KJo on the button and isolate an ok player who open limped UTG+2. SB (Villian) 3 bets Limper calls and I call.

FLOP: 3h 6c Kh. I do not have a heart. Villian leads Limper folds and I call.

Turn: 3c (3h 6c Kh 3c) Villian leads I raise villian thinks and calls.

River 8s (3h 6c Kh 3c 8s). Villian checks I bet and he thinks for 1 second and checkraises. I fold. Meh?

Dan BRIGHT · #2 01-22-2006, 05:44 AM

I wouldnt get to hung up about the timing tells. They are pretty much junk for the most part.

Unless the villain was calling down his pocket 8s and ended up hitting, his play looks really strange. You should be ahead a good enough % chance on the river to call.

contact77 · #3 01-22-2006, 02:33 PM

With no info on the player, I think that it is fine to call. He could easily be a maniac, if he isn't, you still have some value to call down with.

I also find the turn raise interesting. How do you compare this turn raise to calling down or raising the flop or raising the river?

worm33 · #4 01-22-2006, 03:10 PM

I rarely raise the flop anymore, I would have played the hand the same way with 77-qq AA AK or any flush draw, So for the players paying attention I want to keep them off balance

Joe Tall · #5 01-22-2006, 03:19 PM

With so many muti-tablers and TV-watchers the delays or speed don't meed much. Although I love to auto-speed-check to induce bets in the right spots, watch out!

I think you are about 13:1 on the river and it's a little ugly but online I made a policy of never folding there at that price as a default no-read-play.

goofball · #6 01-22-2006, 06:20 PM

It's hard to imagine him taking this line with a hand we're even close to beating. However it's also hard to imagine any two cards with which he always takes this line except an 88 he didn't fold on the turn. Any time the action has been uncommonly weird and it's one bet to me on the river and I have a good hand I call.

SA125 · #7 01-22-2006, 06:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I have KJo on the button and isolate an ok player who open limped UTG+2.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this will look much more like a position than isolation raise to the blinds and I'd expect one of the blinds to call most of the time.

When a solid player 3 bets from the SB with an EP player in, if I'm going to raise a K, I want to get it going early and raise the flop.

If I raise the turn and he calls, I'd check behind here a lot because you got 2 BB's out of him and getting the 3rd isn't a given if he's solid.

StellarWind · #8 01-22-2006, 06:42 PM

1. If Villain had 3-bet the turn would you have called down? The river checkraise amounts to the same thing. It's worth thinking about whether or not you want to play the two betting patterns differently.

2. The 88-or-strange comment is right on target. You need Villain to have 88 or other better hand more than 13 times for every off-the-wall bluff. Is that likely? When legitimate value hands for Villain are scarce, very rare bluffs can become a big percentage of all the checkraises he makes in this situation.

3. Villain may have had an eye on the two flush draws. Perhaps he was waiting for the off card before raising. Naturally I am not endorsing that play but it might have happened.

StellarWind · #9 01-22-2006, 06:45 PM

BTW, why are you raising KJo versus an "OK" player from UTG+2? I guess it depends on what OK means but it seems pushy.

worm33 · #10 01-23-2006, 01:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
1. If Villain had 3-bet the turn would you have called down? The river checkraise amounts to the same thing. It's worth thinking about whether or not you want to play the two betting patterns differently.

2. The 88-or-strange comment is right on target. You need Villain to have 88 or other better hand more than 13 times for every off-the-wall bluff. Is that likely? When legitimate value hands for Villain are scarce, very rare bluffs can become a big percentage of all the checkraises he makes in this situation.

3. Villain may have had an eye on the two flush draws. Perhaps he was waiting for the off card before raising. Naturally I am not endorsing that play but it might have happened.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. If villian had 3 bet turn I prolly woulda speed called and maybe payed off the river. 70% payoff prolly.

2. 88 seems like the most likely hand.

3. True very possible