two pair vs a shortie push and a player behind

mkflsam · #1 08-01-2006, 01:48 AM

Flop minraiser was unremarkable so far, 14/7. Not too many hands on him though, so this could be off a bit.

Shortie is an unknown so far.

How was this played?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed)

SB ($686.05)
BB ($49.62)
UTG ($136.57)
MP ($309.84)
CO ($42.08)
Hero ($190)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $1.
3 folds, Hero raises to $7, SB (poster) calls $6, BB calls $5.

Flop: ($21) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets $12, BB calls $42.62 (All-In), Hero calls $42.62, SB raises to $125, Hero folds.

ArturiusX · #2 08-01-2006, 01:49 AM

Ummm, raise the flop.

mkflsam · #3 08-01-2006, 01:49 AM

To what? Why?

ArturiusX · #4 08-01-2006, 01:52 AM

Because the SB is getting awesome odds on a drawy board, and is probably calling with worse hands?

JackAll · #5 08-01-2006, 08:40 AM

What are you putting SB on to fold??
TJ or JQ/KQ are most likely here.
AQ/JJ/KK is less likely given pf action. So that leaves only TT that you're behind.

Get it all in.

fyodor · #6 08-01-2006, 10:54 AM

For SB to lead into that flop you know he has some piece of it but his range is huge. As huge as it is though, I think (even before seeing his $125 reraise) a good chunk of it currently beats you. If this were a limit game I would say you are likely ahead, but in NL people will just call pf with a lot of decent hands looking to really make out postflop with a well disguised holding. I therefore wouldn't rule out any set, the broadway str8, every combo of 2 pair, all 1 pair broadway with str8 draw: AK, AJ, AT, KQ, QJ, QT and I guess you can fire in any broadway with a 9 and maybe 99.

The BB obviously has a piece too, but being a short stack you would think he would have been more likely to have popped it pf with a big pair. You basically have to give him the same range though. This gives you better than 40% equity and even if you weight it so their better holdings are more likely, you still have the best of it.

When you make the $42 call, the pot is now $117. SB has a trivial call with any of his holdings for $30 getting pretty much 4:1. If he is behind, he probably averages 7 outs on his draws. You have to offer him less than 4:1. Minraising to $75 gives him about 2.4:1 and leaves you $65 behind. If he just calls, you are happy. However even if a blank falls on the turn wtf are you going to do? Check behind and give him one more free crack at his draw, or stick in your last $65 and offer him odds (4+:1) he can't resist?

If he pushes behind to your minraise you are sick, but are getting 5:1 to put the rest of your stack in.

You can't possibly fold to the BB's raise, so I think you have a push or call situation. Pushing should fold all his worse holdings and only get calls from hands that beat you. That sounds like fun.

I would therefore call and see what comes/happens on the turn. If, as in the actual hand, he makes a big raise behind you, you can fold. You don't have to win them all.

stewcrew · #7 08-01-2006, 12:00 PM

I think I would put my opponent on Q9, KT, or JT with this line. AQ and sets are all possible but I would feel less likely from the sb (being oop) would he really cc with KK, JJ, TT or AQ. AQ or TT maybe but I don't think so with KK or JJ.

The BB could be have a similar range but my also be trying to protect something like KQ.

I think your ahead of his range but I don't know if its worth going broke here.

Once the sb reraises the two hands I fear the most are Q9 and TT. Most of the pair+straight draw cards are not pushing I feel are not pushing here. Why not just call and try to hit the straight or trips with this hand? He can't get the BB to fold so why wouldn't he try to improve. He can't think QT or QJ is ahead of the BB.

Doing the math when he is committing you both is flawed here. I would say fyodor has a slight logic mistake. Lets say that he must call the last $65 if you call the min raise (so you are both pot committed after the minraise). Then the odds are on the flop are not really 2.4:1. I am referring to this line

"Minraising to $75 gives him about 2.4:1 and leaves you $65 behind. "

If he is going to call your minraise on the flop he is committed he is going to call the rest. So the bet is really 140 and not 75. So I don't believe there is a difference between raising and pushing since you are both committed no matter what.

The real problem here is the lack of reads. Was the table really donkish here? If it was I would just get it all in. The range of hands really increases and the players will be overplaying many hands you beat to try and take advantage of donks overplaying even weaker ones. Thats also if they aren't a donk themselves.

At a 200nl donk monster table, with no reads I call any all-ins here.

Stew

JackAll · #8 08-01-2006, 12:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You can't possibly fold to the BB's raise, so I think you have a push or call situation. Pushing should fold all his worse holdings and only get calls from hands that beat you. That sounds like fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he pushes, all draws and lower 2 pair come a long for the ride.

[ QUOTE ]
I would therefore call and see what comes/happens on the turn. If, as in the actual hand, he makes a big raise behind you, you can fold. You don't have to win them all.

[/ QUOTE ]

And let them fold on the river when they don't hit their draw rather than getting in the money now while we are ahead?

[ QUOTE ]
Once the sb reraises the two hands I fear the most are Q9 and TT.

[/ QUOTE ]
How often do you think non-retarded players stay in a raised pot with Q9? That leaves you with fearing a set. And since there are so many draws more likely, it would be like folding KK as an overpair fearing AA beating you.

[ QUOTE ]
Why not just call and try to hit the straight or trips with this hand?

[/ QUOTE ] I assume you mean a fh.
And allowing an extra card allows villians to draw for cheap.

mkflsam · #9 08-01-2006, 02:31 PM

i think most of you are underestimating just how nitty the SB is. i don't think he ever calls pf oop with KT/KJ and i doubt he'd call with JT. i put him on AQ/JJ/TT/KQ/and small medium pair/slight chance of JT/QJ type hands just from his flat call pf. may be i'm giving him way too much credit.

SB had TT for bottom set and BB had a weak King.

i'm surprised most of you think SB calls with weaker hands if i push the flop here. why is it such a big deal to offer the SB 4-1 odds, which isn't enough for a lot of hands anyways, when i could get so much information when it gets back around to him on the flop?

fyodor · #10 08-01-2006, 04:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Doing the math when he is committing you both is flawed here. I would say fyodor has a slight logic mistake. Lets say that he must call the last $65 if you call the min raise (so you are both pot committed after the minraise). Then the odds are on the flop are not really 2.4:1. I am referring to this line

"Minraising to $75 gives him about 2.4:1 and leaves you $65 behind. "

If he is going to call your minraise on the flop he is committed he is going to call the rest. So the bet is really 140 and not 75. So I don't believe there is a difference between raising and pushing since you are both committed no matter what.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is why I concluded it's either push or call.