NL Hold em player wanting to learn PLO

[BananaDan]

I´ve been playing NL Hold em for a couple of years now and recently I´ve begun trying to play some Omaha, mostly high and some hi/lo.
What would you say are the most common mistakes that Hold em players tend to make when playing Omaha ? Overrating aces, playing 2 or 3 card hands, sticking to their hands when they hit a good flop but not realizing they have no chances of improving and there´s monsterdraws out there.. Anything else ?
Also, do you recommend betting pot all the time, including when you´re drawing, so you don´t give away the strength of your hand through betting patterns ?


My first post, wheee [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[glass_onion]

yes.

also, losing lots on underfulls and flopped st8's. Also, not being wary of sets.

[BananaDan]

Ah yes, the dreaded underfull. Kinda hard to get away from, for me at least.. Often I settle for attempting to keep the pot small when my boat is small in a 2 or 3 way pot, more than 2 opponents and I usually drop it, just does´nt seem worth the bother. Another thing I find difficult is playing the second nuts, K high flush for instance. Many times I´ll do the very same thing there, try to keep the pot small but I don´t know...sometimes I feel a bit like a coward [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

[BananaDan]

So how about the bets - always pot like Cloutier suggests or mix it up, what do you prefer ? Also what about slowplaying...always wrong or sometimes right ? I´ll do it in some rare cases, like flopping nutboat with three aces, quads of course but also sometimes when I´m holding nut on the flop with huge draws, top set with a straightdraw plus the nutflushdraw for instance, I mean I want money in the middle for christ sake. People say you don´t need to build a pot in PLO but that´s just not true in many cases from what I´ve seen so far.
But I´ve been called everything from moron to fish for not betting hard all the way with such a hand. So slowplay - yes or no no ?

[Lijebaley]

I am a NLH player that has been trying to learn PLO for about 2 months now. I can tell you that the best starting hands in PLO do not enjoy the same statistical advantages over the lesser hands. Find a Omaha hand calculater, I use the one on cardplayer.com but there are others. Then go into your hand histories and find hands you played with at least 2 hands shown down at the end and replay them using the hand calculator. You will be amazed with the results. Then take a deck of cards and add random hands to create a full table to go along with the known hands. It is amazing how many times hands you create end up beating the hands that won when played live.

In holdem flopping something like the nut st8t is usually a won hand. In PLO you will end up having to throw it away about as many times as you can get it to the river for the win.There are so many redraws in PLO. To have any chance at all of being a winner, developing the ability to recognise the fact that you can flop a made hand and still be a huge underdog.

It seems that bluffing in PLO is not nearly as successful as it is in NLH. The smaller maximum size of the bet you can make plays a large role here. As for hand selection I cant tell you much. I did lower my variance when I went to just playing hands that have an suited ace with at least one other draw. Or playing 4 cards that have no more than 1 gap as long as they arent something like 6532. The really low cards rarely hit anyone else so they are tough to make money with. Calling other peoples raises preflop or raising preflop yourself seems to be -EV in the smaller games. No one will fold when you raise. Most of the time you miss the flop badly and end up having to throw the hand away. The only exception to this is the times you find a table when nearly all the players will fold to a pot size bet after the flop unless they have the nuts or close to it.

When I do bet I always bet the pot and its seems to be working for me.

[glass_onion]

its a very loaded question that depends, among other things, on how ahead your hand is, how draw heavy the board is, who you are playing againts, table dynamics, and stack sizes. Post hand histories to get real information.

[nuclear500]

Don't slow play anything except perhaps a set on a wholey uncoordinated board (Q72r for instance). Don't check the flop necessarily, but don't bet strong.

Top two is dangerous - strong but dangerous, even more dangerous on a 2 flush board. Keep with the hand, but don't over commit your chips to it - be prepared to fold.

If the table texture is right, raise with nut flush draws or wrap draws and strong gutshots (but not the ass end of a gushot). Top set with a straight and/or strong flush? Strong hand, try to get value. If you feel its a split on the turn, you have redraws that they won't necessarily see coming.

I'm in the same boat, trying to develop my Omaha Hi game. Less bluffing in Omaha and peddling the nuts is fun!

[BananaDan]

[ QUOTE ]
Post hand histories to get real information.

[/ QUOTE ]

I shall, believe me - this thread will live in infiny [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[RichC.]

I too have been experimenting in PLO, being a mostly NLH guy. Such as yesterday in a PLO Tourney on Stars, I learned that Quads are great one hand and suck the next. Thats right, I lost with quads and too me that is a shocker as I have never lost with quads in NLH game. You can see the hand in the BBV forum if you want to badly enough. By the way, welcome to 2+2.

[christyirish]

I generally bet the pot.

River bets are abit different, i'll mix it up alittle there.

A regular problem with holdem players is that they get married to sets. Top set is a huge hand, but to a certain extent, it is a hand that is drawing to a full house.

As far as slow playing goes, the situations that justify it are rare. Quads and big houses are a potential exception.

Even a pair of sevens on a 722 board is a bad hand to slowplay. If someone has a two they will call a bet. If no one has a two, u were never going to make much anyway. If a card comes higher then a seven it could fill someone else and u might get stacked/lose alot of money.

In general, there is no need to slowplay, because people often have legitimate drawing hands.

I often raise before the flop, and so do most of the experienced players i have seen and talked to.

I suppose one of the key differences between holdem and omaha is the increased importance of position. Because slowplaying and checkraising is so dangerous and is so often inappropriate, a check is a sign of weakness. So the person who acts last gains alot of information. He can take free cards, bluff and my personal favourite, have people betting in to u on the turn, trying to protect their hand, when u have the new nuts.