0.5/1 88 vs. guy that has lost his mind and a table that knows it

DanoMak · #1 07-25-2006, 12:34 AM

This hand has me puzzled and I would appreciate any input.

The previous hand a switch went off inside UTG. He went banannas on Q6o, capping everyting and eventually running into a full house.

Limit: $0.50/$1
10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) DanoMak is UTG+2 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG raises, UTG+1 folds, DanoMak calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB 3-bets, BB calls, UTG caps, DanoMak calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls.

 My mistake is probably preflop. Against a looney I either get out of the way or try to isolate him with a raise, correct? At the time, I knew he'd cap it, and I really didn't want to bloat the pot with a vulnerable hand if I didn't have to. SB is a bit of a loose cannon (approx 35/25), and I should have factored her in as well. 

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (22SB, 5 players)
SB bets, BB folds, UTG raises, DanoMak folds, CO 3-bets, SB caps, UTG calls all-in $0.8, CO calls.

 Mistake #2: I know I have UTG and probably SB beat. CO is my only concern at this point. However given that I am OOP, there are a ton of overcards that can beat me, nobody is going away until the river, and have 2 people that will likely get into a bidding war yet to act, am I right to fold? How should I factor the potential pot size into this?

Turn: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (16.8BB, 2 players + 1 all-in - Main pot: 16.4BB, Sidepot 1: 0.4BB)
SB checks, CO bets, SB calls.

River: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (18.8BB, 2 players + 1 all-in - Main pot: 16.4BB, Sidepot 1: 2.4BB)
SB checks, CO bets, SB calls.

Results:
Final pot: 20.8BB

KeysrSoze · #2 07-25-2006, 01:26 AM

Assuming most people will fold for 3 cold on your table without premium hands, yeah I'd reraise even from UTG+2. If the table is really loose and 5 or 6 people will come in for two or three bets, I'd play the 8s for set value and just call. The middle ground, where enough people won't fold but enough people won't call, i'd fold the 88.

On the flop the pot is so big I'd just throw bets in to try to win it, hopefully fold CO's possible overcards with a 3 bet, if you're so sure that SB and UTG will bet with air a majority of the time.

cold_cash · #3 07-25-2006, 01:30 AM

3-bet before the flop.

I'd likely 3-bet the flop also.

Gib · #4 07-25-2006, 01:42 AM

3bet PF, isolate the idiot. I would 3bet here with basically nearly any pair. If SB caps then it's time to play defence.

OziBattler · #5 07-25-2006, 07:53 AM

Stack sizes werent given but we do see Capatain Tilty is All in on the flop and when a guy on tilt is shortstacked you want to get it HU and you can loosen up to do so. I like 88 versus a potentially random hand of a donator. 3bet preflop. This also would mean that then SB would need a bigger hand to cap you than he would to 'just raise' with his 3 bet preflop.

On the flop I wouldnt bet convinced that SB has a bigger overpair just yet and you have position. I would 3 bet that mofo on the flop (this would be better IF we had raised preflop)

Answer me this, why is CO your big concern here? CO only comes alive after your decision point on the flop....was there a read here?

but I would like to rewind....I dont hate limping if table conditions dictate that we will have to play this for set value but yeah, this hand will play out differenty if YOU 3bet preflop because it would have given more definition to whether SB has a big pair or maybe 'just' two big cards.

btw for unbiased responses...cut off the action at the decision point that bothers you...ie the flop

Cliff Notes version of my post = what Gib said [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Romulus141 · #6 07-25-2006, 09:26 AM

Pre-flop: I'd like a 3-bet here. You know UTG is raising with crap, so time to isolate him with a decent hand. The cold-call works if you're sure that several players will come along and not go raise crazy, but since SB is a loose cannon, I think that argues more that you should have just got that 3-bet in ASAP.

Flop: You have an overpair against two people who are likely shooting with no better than a pair, and you fold in this huge pot? Ouch man. Pop a 3-bet and go from there. It's for value, not protection.

DanoMak · #7 07-25-2006, 09:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: You have an overpair against two people who are likely shooting with no better than a pair, and you fold in this huge pot? Ouch man. Pop a 3-bet and go from there. It's for value, not protection.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are completely right, and I appreciate you guys re-enforcing the proper concepts into my head... I have been playing like a wuss since I started on a big downswing and felt like I've been burning money. Hands like the one below are lingering in my mind and having an effect on me. I'm starting the whole "how can this ever be profitable?" thing. I need to stick to my game and hit SSHE again.

10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) DanoMak is UTG+2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
2 folds, DanoMak calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, 3 folds, SB calls, BB raises, DanoMak calls, MP2 calls, SB calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4SB, 4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, DanoMak raises, MP2 calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6BB, 4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, DanoMak bets, MP2 folds, SB calls, BB calls.

River: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (9BB, 3 players)
SB checks, BB bets, DanoMak calls, SB calls.

Results:
Final pot: 12BB
BB shows KS QD 
DanoMak shows AD 6D 
SB shows 5D10C

hammerva · #8 07-25-2006, 11:09 AM

I guess this is why I stink at poker because I don't see how capping the pot pre-flop with still 5 players involves means you are comfortable with your 88. UTG might be a complete donk but a K2 offsuit still can beat you. And what evidence is there that CO and SB doesn't have anything that beats 88. The flop helped you out but it might give false hope. Are you betting heavy pre-flop so you can chase a set or full house later. Or do you actually think that these 5 players don't have a A, K, Q, T or 9 (or worse a pair of those already). Or are you not supposed to care and just let things happen?

I know I know too passive and cowardly but I see hands like the first one and just see all those hands that I lose to A4 off or K10s no matter how many times I raise and bet. Maybe I should start using all these statistics and numbers and formulas so I can have the kind of confidence you guys have.

cold_cash · #9 07-25-2006, 01:20 PM

You cant use what would have happened pre-flop after the fact.

One of the main decisions in this hand takes place right here:

A tilting, short-stacked, UTG steamer open raises, and you're up next w/ 88...

You can't say, "Oh, I would call because the pot turned out to be 5-handed."

Absolution · #10 07-25-2006, 01:27 PM

I think he's also referring to the flop and turn plays, where people are suggesting playing this 88 aggressively here. The pot is huge, but your hand is vulnerable, you can't protect and you are likely going to pay a lot to see this one down. The fact that the tilter is shortstacked makes it a little less risky so I would say calling down is fine because of that. I don't think it matters what you do on the flop here as the titler is going to get all his money in no matter what. Raising might give you some information about what the SB has though. When the CO reraises this after calling preflop, I think you're down to 2 outs most of the time though.