JJ multiway, vs. preflop capper (1/2 PP)

Sirasoni · #1 07-24-2006, 08:27 PM

Unfortunately I had no reads because there was something wrong with my PA where it simply wouldn't show any stats for anyone else other than like 2 people (despite being in the session for a good while).

I would like comments on the flop and the turn fold. Do you guys take a different flop line?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 3 folds, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, UTG+1 caps, MP2 calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (16 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets, MP2 calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (10 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets, MP2 calls, Hero folds (BB still left to act).

I figured a problem I had previously was paying off with TT/JJ when I could squarely put villain on QQ+ in hu situations with rag boards. This was multiway and a pretty large pot, is it worth the peel? Or was the turn fold ok?

HouseCalls · #2 07-24-2006, 08:42 PM

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I figured a problem I had previously was paying off with TT/JJ when I could squarely put villain on QQ+ in hu situations with rag boards.

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Can you do that here?? As played I lean toward calling down.

Point Blank · #3 07-24-2006, 08:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately I had no reads because there was something wrong with my PA ... despite being in the session for a good while.

[/ QUOTE ]

some advice from a fellow newbie: if you don't have any "reads" after sitting at a table for awhile, other than numbers from your HUD - try turning it off for a few weeks and start making mental notes on play style (you'll benefit from this)

on the hand ... I think I might put in a raise on the flop (play would depend on aggro level of UTG1)

Jaran · #4 07-24-2006, 08:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately I had no reads because there was something wrong with my PA ... despite being in the session for a good while.

[/ QUOTE ]

some advice from a fellow newbie: if you don't have any "reads" after sitting at a table for awhile, other than numbers from your HUD - try turning it off for a few weeks and start making actual physical written down either on paper or on the system provided by the site notes on play style (you'll benefit from this)

on the hand ... I think I might put in a raise on the flop (play would depend on aggro level of UTG1)

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

-Jaran

Sirasoni · #5 07-24-2006, 09:00 PM

I use the note system quite often, mostly so I can note peculiarities such as raising (or lack thereof) habits (by habits I mean what cards they actually do it with), flop calling habits, showdown habits, what I assume to be their image of me, etc.

I recently switched databases the other day and that was why PA was like that - the numbers I had on others were from my old database.

Anyways, the problems I had with the hand was that I was against a preflop capper, whose range I felt was most likely AK, QQ+, and the callers who showed no sign of folding anytime soon.

On the flop, I also considered leading out and check/raising possibly options. Both options leave 1 player faced with calling 2 cold, but another problem is that it doesn't help me if I'm behind already. I think even AKo makes this raise if I lead out, especially if he has Ah or Kh. If I had check/raised, do we fold to a 3-bet, peel and fold turn UI, or something else?

Ten Dollar Man · #6 07-24-2006, 09:03 PM

*grunch*

I'm trying hard to find a way to get to showdown since the pot is so big and it's quite possible that neither of the two callers have anything more than broadways seeing as they are so passive.
So, if our position compared to the villain had been different, so that a raise to protect our hand would have been a viable choice on the flop, then I would have done just that, hoping the villain has AKs.

But, seeing as that is not a choice, I think you're right in peeling one off for the implied odds (for a set) and folding the turn.

Point Blank · #7 07-24-2006, 09:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I use the note system quite often, mostly so I can note peculiarities such as raising (or lack thereof) habits (by habits I mean what cards they actually do it with), flop calling habits, showdown habits, what I assume to be their image of me, etc.

I recently switched databases the other day and that was why PA was like that - the numbers I had on others were from my old database.

Anyways, the problems I had with the hand was that I was against a preflop capper, whose range I felt was most likely AK, QQ+, and the callers who showed no sign of folding anytime soon.

On the flop, I also considered leading out and check/raising possibly options. Both options leave 1 player faced with calling 2 cold, but another problem is that it doesn't help me if I'm behind already. I think even AKo makes this raise if I lead out, especially if he has Ah or Kh. If I had check/raised, do we fold to a 3-bet, peel and fold turn UI, or something else?

[/ QUOTE ]

BB could have a variety of holdings ... and could be correct in calling with them

what you do would need to reflect on how you see UTG1 playing an overpair or overcards ... this is a large pot, and most people would want to win it.

if this was my 2nd hand in a new game, with no info on anybody ... I'll c/r raise the flop (BB will call, if he calls 1 here he will call 2) - if 3 bet I would lean towards calling down (and watch for the flush)

it would really depend on my mood at that point

Smurph64 · #8 07-24-2006, 09:41 PM

Well if we are just looking at the turn play then I would say the fold there was a mistake, assuming you are behind which is probable at best you have at 22 to 1 shot of making the best hand. If a jack comes on the river you will likely get the opportunity to check raise.

So counting bets, there is 1 more bet for you to call which means there will be 13 bb in the pot. The raiser will add one more on the river MP2 calls, you raise and worse case UTG+1 calls and MP2 folds after the first river bet, but you win the pot, so bad call or not odds wise, you win.

Best case scenario, UTG+1 (pocket QQ+ or KQ(making you a loser)) reraise etc. so the pot will be 8 to 10 bets higher or roughly 22 to 1. And that assumes that the BB and the MP2 fold. If that happens and you lose which is not likely then your 22 to 1 shot was right on the money EV wise and it didn't come in.

So what I am saying is that using implied odds you are not that far out in calling 1 bet on a 10bb pot on the turn.

Now that being said, what effect did you want to have happen with your reraise preflop?

It sounds like you wanted to isolate based on your play after, but then it didn't work. So after the flop came down and you had the opportunity to check raise when you were clearly at least a 30% favourite to win the pot with 3 other callers a reraise makes the most sense.

If they call then for sure you have the pot odds to call the turn. If they fold then you have the isolation you wanted and maybe even the pot.

Sirasoni · #9 07-25-2006, 05:22 AM

I don't think QQ+ is bet/3-betting the river after I check/raise out of nowhere (if I hit). You have a point though, this is large pot which makes this more of a call compared to other situations (like the hu situation I brought up).

I 3-bet preflop simply because I have a good hand and I felt that I was ahead against UTG+1 and MP2's ranges.

The flop check/raise is looking more appealing now.

Thanks for your help guys

Veron · #10 07-25-2006, 07:35 AM

Grunch
these kind of situations are allways tough to handle with, especially since you have no reads.

On the flop you're ahead to AK making a cont. bet, but you can't protect your hand so calling is oke.

On the turn the pot is 12 BB's big so I don't think I can get away from it. How's raising, hoping to get BB out and taking a free showdown? If you raise and UTG+1 3bets you can easily fold.

conclusion; I think you have to take a stand in this big pot