pf theory question

[mosta]

which of the two following is better play, or more theoretically correct?:

1. never fold pf on the button b/c of position.

2. never fold pf in BB b/c you're getting 3:1 or, really, 4:1 (impliedly).

the issue I'm curious about is not whether "never" is right or not, but rather which situation is better--button, or 4:1? I've seen it come up as a side discussion in threads where someone says eg "you're folding too much in BB, I play everything or almost everything there" and then other places the same said about the button. But I haven't seen those two points reconciled or compared to say which is the better place for more hands (or conclude that you should play everything in both).

[yeau2]

I think it would depend on the player.

Let's say a player, unrealistically, is extremely ridiculously tight for a heads up limit game, and comes in for a sb raise. You can fold a bottom 20-25% hands because more than likely your in a situation where you are 4 to 1 behind.

I think #1 is 'more' correct, because you always have one less piece of information to go on as opposed to your opponent acting before you in situation 2.

Also...how do you think this changes when the games are:
3/6
5/10
10/20
15/30
Where small blind sizes are different.

[Dromar]

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which of the two following is better play, or more theoretically correct?:

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I'd go with

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1. never fold pf on the button b/c of position.

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[Oxy]

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[ QUOTE ]

which of the two following is better play, or more theoretically correct?:

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I'd go with

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1. never fold pf on the button b/c of position.

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which is still fairly incorrect, yes?

[Dromar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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which of the two following is better play, or more theoretically correct?:

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I'd go with

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1. never fold pf on the button b/c of position.

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which is still fairly incorrect, yes?

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"Fairly" incorrect? I don't know. In NL, it's obviously stupid to call the big blind's push because you have the button, but I'm assuming we're talking about limit. In limit, once you've called the blind, I don't think it could ever be correct to fold for one more bet.

Personally, I open fold the worst of hands from the button, or any hand that I wouldn't be willing to call the blind's raise with. If my opponent is passive enough, I may still choose to limp in with some of those hands, at which point I'm almost exclusively going to call the raise.

I honestly don't know if it's mathematically wrong to fold any hand at all from the button, but I do know that the bots in PokerAcademy never do.

I suppose I could just figure it out...

Let's say I have 32o on the button in $2/4 LHE (that's $1/2 blinds). My opponent is prone to raising with the top 65% if I limp.
Here's some interesting stuff to know:
a)32o has ~32% equity against a random hand.
b)32o must have <32% equity against top 65% (31.1% actually).

65% of the time, I'll have to put in $3 to see a total pot of $8, so I would really like to have 37.5% equity. I most certainly have less, unless my opponent plays terribly OOP. Even then, he probably doesn't play that terribly.
In a $5/10 LHE game, with $2 and $5 blinds, I would want 40% equity those times he raises.
And, of course, those equity calculations assume that I play the hand with no mistakes, which is quite unlikely to happen.
But what about the times when I limp, and he doesn't raise me (35% of the time)? Against the bottom 35%, 32o has 34.95% equity (PokerStove is nice).
So, 35% of the time, I have ~35% equity in a $4 pot, and 65% of the time, I have 31.1% equity in an $8 pot.
Doing some math:

(4)(.35) = 1.4 - 1 = .4 (I gain .4 in equity when he checks)

(8)(.311) = 2.48 - 3 = -.52 (I lose .52 in equity when he raises and I call his raise getting 3:1)

(.4)(.35) + (-.52)(.65) = (-.12)(.35) + (-.52)(.3) = -.2106.

It seems that, in my situation, calling the blind with 32o loses me $.21 on average. Again, that's if I make no mistakes during the play of the hand.

I just don't see how it can be good to do anything but fold the worst of hands in LHE, even from the button, except in special circumstances (like a truly terrible opponent). Yet PokerAcademy bots never fold from the button preflop.

That's my understanding of the situation at this point. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.

[rebuyboy]

<< 32o has ~32% equity against a random hand. >>

How coincidental.