ethics of a live poker game

[calc]

Two questions...

Firstly I was recently playing in a cardroom and noticed a marked card. It was not marked on purpose I don't think (was ony a 5) but had a tiny speck on it, probably from someone who had some food on their hands. I decided that since it probably wasn't an attempt at cheating, I should not say anything and try to use this to my advantage if I could. I knew something more about the cards than my opponents only because I was being observant and felt that should be my advantage and there was no good reason to give up that advantage by drawing attention to the marked card. Do you agree or think I'm a low down cheat?

The 2nd question relates to players who are long term losers and are playing with money they can't afford to lose. I'm talking about people literally playing with their rent money week in week out. because you play with these people a lot you sometimes become friends with them. I have no trouble playing hard and taking chips off friends, but I don't like to do it against people who can't afford to lose. I want to send my opponents home pissed off that they lost again, not hopelessly depressed because they're broke and don't know how they are going to pay the rent next week. There is a big difference in my eyes.

I never leave a game these players are in. They are usually so bad someone is going to collect their money, so I might as well get some of it. But I feel like helping some of these people, turning them onto this website and a couple of books that will help plug major leaks in their game. Or even just giving them a few pointers after they make a major mistake.

You ever feel sorry for a player and help them improve their game even though they are regular good value for you?

[driverseati]

1. In my view, you should attempt to bring this to the dealer's attention and let him deal with it. With something like that, he'll usually just try to rub it off. But to address the question, it's not bad cheating, but it is still (IMO) a form of cheating. You as a player should help the casino keep a fair game. Think about if poker was not considered fair. It would not be the game it is today in popularity. I know that view is kinda extreme, but you know what I mean... I feel that all players are entitled for cards to be indistinguishable when viewed from the back.

2. Yes, good ethics would tell you to address their gambling problem. However, all I can see happening is that you would waste your energy. They don't want to hear this from a stranger. Now if this is a friend, by all means address the problem. In this case, helping a friend is paramount to a measly poker game.

3. For strangers, I would not give them advice. You do not know them and even though you mean well, you could offend them unintentionally. If they were my friends, yes I give them advice here and there. However, be careful with what you give, not all advice works for everybody. Everyone has their own style that they're comfortable with. Discussing hands is fine, but try to avoid generalizations.

[Dastone]

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I should not say anything and try to use this to my advantage if I could.

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I don't think you are low for trying, but I don't think this is very valuable knowledge and I wouldn't put much energy or effort into it. Besides, after a half hour they will switch decks and your information is useless. Just keep playing good poker and observe the things that do matter over the course of a sesion.

I am glad to hear you don't leave the games these players are in. You should be happy to oblige them if they want to, or can't stop giving their money away.

As far as helping them. The kind of help you are offering is not the kind of help they need. I understand how you have a type of bond with these familiar faces, but unless they are true friend of yours, I would suggest leaving the matter of them getting help up to someone else.

Oh, and don't tell them that there is an online poker communnity where they can go and read about how everyone thinks that they are fish, donks, and morans.

[slcseas]

1. I wouldn't have said anything. It's not like you marked it. You weren't making an effort to cheat, you just stumbled upon it.

2. If they aren't people you would associate with outside the game, take the money and run.

I had a similar dilemma to yours a couple weeks ago. I was directly to the dealers left, and a player directly to the dealers right continuously exposed their cards to me. I wasn't making an effort to cheat, but when it was his turn to act he constantly double checked his cards. I decided if he wasn't even good enough to keep his cards concealed, I wasn't really cheating since I was probably going to take all his money anyway.

[Mike]

The marked card, I would mention to the dealer. There isn't any value in it.

When I started playing in '98, I played stud. There was an old couple, in their 80's who would hold up their hole cards and flash them to their side of the table. I would soft play them because I felt sorry for them, because reality say's I may be there some day.

The other more experienced player played them hard and took every chip they could from them. When they went broke for the session and quit, I was left with the better players who had much bigger stacks than mine and I was the next fish in their sights.

After going in the hole and realizing that if I had played hard for those old peoples chips I may still in the black my thinking changed.

If you don't play your best for all player's chips at the table - others are, and they will use those chips to take yours, even if they play a much worse game than you. Or they will cash them in and go out and have fun while you are suffering through your next downswing.

Although it wasn't until I went way negative for the third time though that I _really_ understood how important _all_ easy chips are for me to continue to enjoy the game that I no longer cared who's chips I took. If I want to play and have some extra cash I need those chips. I am not responsible for them or their conditions. All players are equal at the table.

Finally if you help them with your game you make your game harder. Move up in limits if you want a tougher game.

[icemanjmw]

I play hard against everybody, I used to feel bad about taking people's money and it translated to being a losing player (plus I didnt know much about the game).
Now I have a killer instinct at the table and along with the knowledge from books and these forums that has translated into a more focused/better game.

To the other point, people who are bad players usually don't know that they are bad players. Also they will be insulted by you telling them they are a bad player. Just continue to take their money and let them have their fun, you both win.

[bernie]

1st: Cards usually have chip marks/dents or some crap on most of them. Most of these marks you can't see unless you're right on top of the card.

2nd:

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Or even just giving them a few pointers after they make a major mistake.


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Because we need more table coaches in the world... [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

I don't give help unless it's asked for. I'm not someone special that I should be telling someone how to spend their money or how to improve their game unsolicited. I don't appreciate when it's done to me.

Not to mention, those people would likely care less if you were in their shoes. If it really bothers you to play against those types, poker may not be for you.

b

[dkgojackets]

If someone is gambling with money you know they can't afford to lose, I dont think encouraging them to play more poker is very helpful.

[bernie]

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If someone is gambling with money you know they can't afford to lose, I dont think encouraging them to play more poker is very helpful.

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Who said anything about encouraging them? It's not my place to tell them how to spend their money. Especially if I don't even hardly know the person.

b

[sc24evr]

2. I would do what Phil Gordon says to do in his book, rob them blind if you can, but off the table do what you can to help them out.