How to Improve

[Makonnen]

Hi, all!

I'm a SNG/MTT guy who has been looking for a cash game to add. I absolutely love LO8, and am obsessed with getting better at it. I now have about 10K hands at .50/1, and am almost exactly a breakeven player (-.06 BB/100 hands in 9.7K hands). My question is, how do I find out where my leaks are? I review my hands in PTO, and it just feels like I'm looking in the wrong places, that is, unlike HE, where reviewing the hands I lost the most at was a surefire way to find leaks, here it seems the issue are the hands I lose 2-3 BB's in, but I'm not sure what to look for.

My VPIP is 19, PFR of 5.8, W$SD of 60.

Any advice appreciated ...

-Makonnen

[IronFly]

I think you can add more hands profitably. I imagine VPIP of 19 is squeeky tight for .5/1.

[1MoreFish4U]

Although I have never played at limits that low, IronFly is definitely correct. A VPIP of less than 22 is 'squeaky tight' at 5/10 or less.
A line like this over a large sample works well at the 2/4 & 3/6 levels.
VPIP 24 PFR 12 Att Steal 18

[Makonnen]

In general, are strong high only hands, or weaker low coordinated hands better to add? That is, should I start looking at QQ (which I generally toss now), or instead start looking at something like 3468ds, which I also toss?

Or, should it be purely by position--that is, call liberally from the button and the CO, hoping to hit strong in position?

-Makonnen

[graarrg]

I tangled with the VPIP issue a long time ago, but I recall part of my vpip expansion project included adding more suited aces in decent position, any 4 above 10 , 23+wheel+wheel/6 in lp with low threat of a raise. Then again, even after I did that, my VPIP for .50/1 after 17k was 20.7.

edit: from what I can tell you definitively, I emphasize that you should NOT play weak coordinated low/middle cards, such as the one you listed. If you will expand your hand selection, look for hands that can plausibly make the nuts and scoop. I don't play this myself (I play PLO8 now, but back then I didn't), but a hand in LO8 like QQ9Tss is a much better holding than 2466ds, not necessarily by cold equity but by playability postflop. When you flop a set or a straight with the first, you have a higher chance of scooping and making the nuts. With the second, while you have low potential, multiway you're going to find yourself in unsure situations with 2nd or 3rd best low or a set with high probability that you're playing for half the pot. If you want to expand vpip, go with nutty looking hands like the ones I mentioned earlier in the post.

[Pnigro]

I posted this last week, hope it helps:

In LO8 full ring games the problem is NOT VPIP.

I joined PartyPoker last week. I have a VPIP of 17% and I'm up $172 in 2725 hands playing $0.05/$1

VPIP doesn't matter if you don't know what to do after the flop. Flop-play IS where you need to focus. Omaha is a flop game, keep that in mind.

Here is some advice:

- Evaluate your hands with Poker Tracker. Go to "Game Notes", press the button on the right that says "Get All", sort the hands so that the ones where you lost most money are in the top, and finally, replay them.

- Avoid calling 2 bets cold. You need the nuts or a nice draw to the nuts in order to justify the call.

- Build the pot before the flop with strong hands so that when you hit hard people are more inclined to stay in.

- If you raised before the flop and miss the flop, just fold, don't chase backdoors. There will come better opportunities to make money.

- In full ring games, 2 pairs and trips are drawing hands. Be careful with them. The only times I advice being aggressive with trips is when there is no low draw possible because it's more likely you'll scoop. For example you have KKxx and flop is K-9-5.

- Chase only Q, K and A high flushes. BE CAREFUL with Q and K high flushes.

- Don't make fancy moves, just wait for good flops and draws, you WILL get paid, believe me.

- When you hit big be aggressive, raise, re-raise, start raise wars. Raise big draws (NC low draws, nut-nut draws, top trips with no low possible), not made hands (unless nut flush or full house). Don't go crazy with flopped straights when you sense strength in opponents, they probably have trips and flush draw and you're not a big favorite.

- If all you have with the flop is a counterfeitable low draw, be as careful as possible, just check/call until the end. Unless you raised before the flop and want to do a continuation bet when it's checked to you on the flop.

Overall, just wait for good flops, be patient. Play 3-4 tables and concentrate.

The flop MUST combine beautiful with your hand, that's what Omaha is all about.

[omaha]

My stats are vvv similar to makkonen - played 7k, profit of about ten bucks, vpip 19, pfr about 6% profit of .17bb/100hands (now i just got to shift that decimal point over a bit!)

WHen I go through my hands, nothing really stands out as crappy play, even when i think about what zee and ss2 say. When i review good profitable players in my db, i would do almost exactly the same as they do.

My theory is this, and I think your (makkonens) problem is the same.

Our vpip is tight, and should be profitable (assuming you are playing the best of hands and not shlitty middle cards). River play can be pretty obvious.

SO, where are we flucking up? It has gotta be the flop and the turn. No where else it can be really , can it? Just got tenner and krieger which seems to have a good deal of how to play the flop and turn- more specifics than ss2, and a whole heap more than zee

WIll let you know how i go, but i am really, really looking forward to playing another 7k hands and comparing my two results.................................

Another way of not splashing chips around. Dont overcall the river (esp on one way boards) without a v good hand. Even if the first bet was a bluff, the second MUST symbolise some sort of hand.

Also, tighten up when it is a bet to you, and there are players left to act.

Well done pnigro, on your 172 profit in 2725 hands. This is 6bb/100hands. Have you played much previously, or was this your first attempt?

Another thing, read some of buzzs posts, and pay attention to when he is talking about what your odds you are getting on the FRESH or new money going in. For example, if you have top set vs a made straight, you raise against multiple players, but bet/call or ch/call against one or two, due to the odds on the extra money going in

[Pnigro]

[ QUOTE ]
Well done pnigro, on your 172 profit in 2725 hands. This is 6bb/100hands. Have you played much previously, or was this your first attempt?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not my first attempt, I played at PokerStars before and did pretty good but there were not many omaha players over there. Just switched to party and it's so much better.

[Makonnen]

[ QUOTE ]
In LO8 full ring games the problem is NOT VPIP. I joined PartyPoker last week. I have a VPIP of 17% and I'm up $172 in 2725 hands playing $0.05/$1

[/ QUOTE ]
I am inclined to agree with you, both on the VPIP and on the fact that the issue is flop and turn play.
[ QUOTE ]
- Evaluate your hands with Poker Tracker. Go to "Game Notes", press the button on the right that says "Get All", sort the hands so that the ones where you lost most money are in the top, and finally, replay them.

[/ QUOTE ]
I do this, but it just hit me that, even though they seem easy to interpret to me, I may just be flat out missing things. I think I will start to post the two hands I've lost most from, just to see what people say about them, see if I have some real blind spots there.
[ QUOTE ]
- Build the pot before the flop with strong hands so that when you hit hard people are more inclined to stay in.

[/ QUOTE ]
My PFT is about 6 or 7%, and I think, is fairly standard, but I wonder if I should be raising preflop closer to 10% of the time.
[ QUOTE ]
- In full ring games, 2 pairs and trips are drawing hands. Be careful with them.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a big set of questions for me--how to play when you flop two (or even three) pair. My sense is that, if I have a shot at the low (or it is a high only board) AND there are three or more players in, they are worth calling in most cases to draw to the boat, but I haven't run the math, and this may just be flat wrong.

Another general question: as a rule, if I have a strong shot at the low, but virtually nothing on the high, I still play. If I have a strong shot at the high, but virtually nothing on the low, I tend to not keep playing. As a general rule, is this smart or idiotic?

-Makonnen

[1MoreFish4U]

PNigro - that is a good solid summary of basic startegy for relative newcomers to the game to use - particularly at full ring games.

I have over 205,000 hands of limit h/l in 2006 (including over 40,000 of 2 & 3 handed play) and I'd just like to add that aggression preflop and following it up postflop are very valuable tools when the game becomes shorthanded.

Also, when playing full ring but seeing the flop with 1 or 2 players try to imagine how the flop could help likely cards they would play before you give up an opportunity to take the lead in the pot. So often, a player at limits like 1/2 and 2/4 will hang in with subpar cards against a single bettor trying to catch one end of the pot. This is the time to punish opponents all the way to the river.