NL 25 hows this call look....

sluggger5x · #1 07-15-2006, 09:00 PM

Villian is pretty loose and is obviously protecting KK/QQ, which if he does, we are almost even money. More implied odds if bb calls, solid call??

PokerStars No-Lim it Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($53.25)
Button ($3.55)
SB ($24.40)
BB ($32.40)
UTG ($31)
MP ($24.65)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG raises to $1.5, 1 fold, Hero calls $1.50, Button raises to $3.55, 1 fold, BB calls $3.30, UTG calls $2.05, Hero calls $2.05.

Flop: ($14.30) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $27.45 (All-In), Hero calls $27.45, BB calls $27.45.

Turn: ($96.65) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players, 1 all-in)
BB bets $1.4 (All-In), Hero calls $1.40.

River: ($99.45) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $99.45

JoaoPinto · #2 07-15-2006, 09:08 PM

The flop call is fine. Though you should've folded pre flop.

notevenhere · #3 07-15-2006, 09:08 PM

This feels like major spewage to me.

Calling a raise by UTG with A7s? Then calling a button re-raise after both BB and UTG call it? What kind of flop are we hoping for here? Do you really want to play a 4 way pot with A7 suited vs 3 people who obviously like their hand?

Where are the implied odds in this hand? UTG overbets 2x the pot all-in. BB has only $1.40 to go after calling behind you. You have zero implied odds. Pot odds yes, implied odds no.

What happened to button? I assume he folds after your call?

Why are you chasing an enormous overbet with, at best, 50/50 odds vs UTG with 2 people still to act behind you? I can see how this call is EV+. But I'm not a fan of committing all my money on a coin flip when I am the one who is calling.

Leaky Game · #4 07-15-2006, 09:14 PM

Fold the turn! [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

First things first. Fold preflop. UTG raises 6 times the BB and you're calling A7s? A decent part of the time he's going to have you dominated and if the ace hits you're going to lose a decent part of your stack before you realize it. Are you just playing Axs into pfr for flush value?

With that said, I don't like this. To make this work out pot odds wise, you need BB to call. That's a big if, fortunately he did but you're just guessing. Now, he did, but what range is he going to generally call this with? Since you're dealing with an UTG raiser and a BB reraiser I'm giving them credit for pretty good starting hands. Say they've both got overpair and one or both has one of your [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]s, then your PO just go thrown off. Not to mention runner runner where your flush hits but one of them hits a set. Although this is unlikely I think it throws a huge wrench into the already thin odds that you're working with. I haven't even mentioned the fact that one of them has a set or one of them stayed in with 87s.

Just my opinion. Feel free to let me know I don't know my arse from my elbow. My wife does all the time! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Chuck_D · #5 07-15-2006, 10:10 PM

Your playing for a flush pure and simple with that hand pre-flop. Even if the button folded how confident would you be if an Ace flops and you dont hit a 7 or a flush/straight draw also? Confident enough to put your stack in?

As the hand has been played I think the flop call is ok although I would fully expect to be behind most of the time.

Keyser. · #6 07-15-2006, 10:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As the hand has been played I think the flop call is ok although I would fully expect to be behind most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop is obviously kinda bad, but the flop call is super-standard. I don't think anyone noticed that you've got a gutshot to go along with your NFD, plus a possible overcard.

Keyser. · #7 07-15-2006, 10:57 PM

There seems to be a pretty big misunderstanding of pot odds in this thread.

[ QUOTE ]
Where are the implied odds in this hand? UTG overbets 2x the pot all-in. BB has only $1.40 to go after calling behind you. You have zero implied odds. Pot odds yes, implied odds no.

[/ QUOTE ]

Implied odds don't matter when his immediate odds are sufficient. (oops, I just noticed OP said something about implied odds, so that's what you're pointing out. my bad.)

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you chasing an enormous overbet with, at best, 50/50 odds vs UTG with 2 people still to act behind you? I can see how this call is EV+. But I'm not a fan of committing all my money on a coin flip when I am the one who is calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

yada yada yada, don't commit your chips on a coinflip. This isn't a tournament.

Hero has to call $27.45 into a pot of $41.75, so he's getting 1.5:1. Hero has a minimum of 12 outs, which is a 1.2:1 shot. Flop call is unquestionably +EV, even if preflop is nasty.

Leaky Game · #8 07-15-2006, 11:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hero has to call $27.45 into a pot of $41.75, so he's getting 1.5:1. Hero has a minimum of 12 outs, which is a 1.2:1 shot. Flop call is unquestionably +EV, even if preflop is nasty.

[/ QUOTE ]

I could be way off here but you make it sound like as soon as he hits his flush on the turn the hand is over. First, how is a one of these guys having a set out of the question? Counting all his outs as clean is an awful mistake. He hits his flush and someone has a set, then the board pairs. Overpair could even hit runner runner for a boat.

notevenhere · #9 07-15-2006, 11:47 PM

I don't deny that calling the flop is +EV. I said as much in my previous reply. My opinion is simply that our EV is + only by a thin margin. Thin enough that I don't need to overcommit to a pot that I have not invested much into.

Will I commit my chips on a coin-flip in a cash game in a + EV situation? If I am the first into the pot, and can take advantage my fold equity for dead money, then by all means yes.

The argument that you should call anytime it is +EV to call is a valid one, I don't dispute that. +EV is +EV. I can't argue with the math or logic.

However, for me, when calling is EV+ by a thin margin, I would rather let it go and wait for a better opportunity in a later hand, where my EV+ is even greater. I am essentially trading pure profit for lower variance.

ajmargarine · #10 07-16-2006, 12:05 AM

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

47,520 games 0.015 secs 3,168,000 games/sec

Board: 5s 9c 6c
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 52.2485 % 51.37% 00.88% { 55+,87s}
Hand 2: 47.7515 % 46.87% 00.88% { Ac7c }

You are getting 1.5:1 on your money in the OP hand. You are a 52:47 dog, giving him the best range. (Don't forget, he'll be FOC sometimes, ~10% of the time) BB coming along is added wonderfulness.

Basically, you are flipping a coin to win the hand. But, what you are really flipping a coin for is the 57bb's that is in the middle. If there's only a few bb's in the middle, then no, it's probably not worth troubling yourself over.