can i fold this, please?

shootaa · #1 07-15-2006, 06:41 AM

i hate this, OOP = worse nightmare

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($105.50)
Hero ($124.20)
BB ($84.62)
UTG ($101.30)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls $1, Button calls $1, Hero (poster) raises to $4, 1 fold, UTG calls $3.50, Button folds.

Flop: ($11) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $7, UTG raises to $14, Hero calls $7.

Turn: ($39) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $20, Hero calls $20.

River: ($79) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $35, UTG calls $62.80 (All-In), Hero calls $27.80.

Final Pot: $204.60

shootaa · #2 07-15-2006, 06:42 AM

comments on all streets are appreciated

jjb108 · #3 07-15-2006, 10:22 AM

The only fold you can't find here is PF. Other than that, not well played IMO.

Raise more PF. This will eliminate more garbage (hands that have 2) and you need to charge them to play this hand with you OOP.

PSB on flop to make flush draw pay. Fold to flop minraise. Why - the rest of the hand is a likely outcome and its all -EV from there. I've not seen a flush draw minraise that I remember so I lower the probability that you ultimately beat a semi-bluff.

As played, c/f turn if you don't catch a miracle. You could lead turn and fold if you still think you might be ahead (you're not!). I can't see what you beat here. He's not bluffing this enough to be a profitable call.

br549007 · #4 07-15-2006, 10:36 AM

Looks good to me. With utg limpin in and then calling $3.50 he has a hand of some kind. Cannoit see him with A6s but he might have if so oh well.

I think he more likely has 99 to KK. and your hand is good.

Would play it the same way.

___h8r___ · #5 07-15-2006, 10:39 AM

c/r ai 4th st.

JackAll · #6 07-15-2006, 11:13 AM

I would say that you want to know right there and then at his min-raise whether you are beat or not and avoid playing for stacks. I would do this by 3-betting to make him pay about $20 to call, so would add $27 to your $7. Then you have 1/3 of your stack in and from his point of view, he has no fold equity with your strong hand. I think at this point he is unlikely to call. He will either push with a made hand (6X or 22) since he thinks you are staying with your hand, or he will fold if he was full of sh!t. If he 4-bets, I would fold if I didn't think they were more than 50% likely to have had KK/QQ.

That's how I would play it anyway. Not worth getting stacked over. I also play this way with air sometimes like AJ-AK on a paired board when I think their min-raise is full of sh!t and they are attempting to play positionally on what they think is a scary board.

Another thing - I had a scare AA hand today also against a tight passive. I get nervous when a TP bets. I fold AA when he raised the turn and when I asked, he said he had a set. I got another AA hand against him, and he raised my c-bet. I got pretty nervous there and called hoping that he would stay passive and check the turn. He saw weakness and pushed and I was in a tough spot. I called and he had tp which was TJ on a T high board.

I discussed this with someone who said that I need to decide right there and then at his flop raise whether I'm playing for stacks or not. Either push the flop to charge draws and realise that you were going to get stacked anyway against better hands, or just fold the flop raise. Callin is crap - which it totally was. If you are staying in the hand on the flop here, you want to get maximum value from worse hands like JJ-KK and any drawers. So do whatever you can to get money in. You might push to look like ur getting them out of the pot, which would entice JJ-KK to call. Or you could call his min-raise on the flop and c/r the turn so they see all the money in the pot and just come along for the ride. If you just don't want to play for stacks, you probably should fold the flop if he raises properly (or do what I suggested when those nits min-raise cuz it leaves you with 2/3 of your stack in tact).

But the point is - you need to decide on the flop if you are playing for stacks and play it down. You can't call the flop and decide later because you lose maximum value from worse hands while at the same time maximising your own losses to better hands.

One other note - I've taken some advice from someone here about sticking to 4BB+1BB/limper and not betting 2/3 always when I c-bet, but to make it closer to PSB on any wet flop. I ignored this advice from heaps of people cuz I thought - raising a limped pot from the button is like 4BB instead of 3.5BB, or with one limper it's 5BB instead of 4.5BB ... big deal. 4BB+1/limper is pretty close to a pot sized raise when you are not in the blinds, but when in the blinds, the difference is massive.

All fold to you at Button:
Pot rrz = 1 + 2.5 = 3.5BB
4+1per = 4BB (extra 14%)

All fold to you at SB:
Pot rrz = 1/2 + 2 = 2.5BB
4+1per = 4BB (extra 60%)

When you get a wet flop, the pot is now around 8-9BB instead of 6BB when you are OOP in the blinds. When you bet 7BB into a 9BB pot, it has enormous FE compared to 4BB in a 6BB pot. It also makes it less likely they will min-raise to 14BB rather than 8BB because 14BB is a friggin lot to bluff with, whereas 8BB is really not that big a deal.

My point is this - stick to at least 4BB+1BB/limper in the blinds (and don't adjust to keep ppl in with AA cuz ppl will notice and stay out when you lower it). You could even add a 1 or 2 BBs, but I find adding these seems to have too much FE. Also bet closer to pot when dealing with a pot that looks like someone might raise to b.s. you like this one.

Appologies for the long post.
JA

Slap My Jack · #7 07-15-2006, 11:19 AM

Easy fold.

Raise more pf.

You make a blocker on the river so you can fold to a push/reraise.

TexArcher · #8 07-15-2006, 11:57 AM

I'd raise a little more pre-flop and bet a little more on the flop, other than that I think you played it fine.

jjb108 · #9 07-15-2006, 12:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd raise a little more pre-flop and bet a little more on the flop, other than that I think you played it fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. Without a bit more PF and flop, you end up in tough situation and losing a lot. Therefore, not played fine IMO. This small increase in aggresion PF and on flop means that you can be very sure if you're played back at that you can release it and not end up quibbling over the last $30 bet. You've got to play this a bit harder early in the hand OOP and release more easily. I have hands like this in my db and I characterize my play in this situation as crappy. I'm not happy playing for a stack in this way without reads even if I beat JJ-77.

shootaa · #10 07-15-2006, 03:11 PM

so i think 3 betting the flop and folding to a push is good? since he limp calld we can more easily put him on a six here. i think any other time, eg goes raise reraise pf, i wouldnt have posted this and playd for stacks no problem. just wondering cuz the min raise on paird board move is so powerful, i didnt want to conceed to it i guess

whats the plan if he calls our 3 bet? just cf?!?! idk, im still lost on this one. i think if playd correctly, its very hard for me to not give him at least 75% my stack