Bluffing the river in PLO8

DavidC · #1 07-13-2006, 11:30 AM

One of the bits of advice Ciaffone gives is that you can bluff the river in PLO because it's scary and there's a good chance you got there.

However, in PLO8 it's a bit harder because you have people with low and high hands, and they could accidentally beat you for the high while calling for the low. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Anyone want to post up a few bluffs so I can get an idea of what you're doing?

Trumbull · #2 07-13-2006, 01:04 PM

I posted this one off of my blog:

HAND 1: THE ANATOMY OF A BLUFF

Speaking of bluffs...I'm never good at outright bluffing in hold 'em like this...I always seem to step on myself, but in this case I thought I knew what I was up against...Preflop raise is pretty standard for me on the button a double suited A3 where I have the nut flush and 2nd nut flush possibility...I can easily make my decision on the flop if I like my hand or not and having position is huge...Flop is OK, nothing really great, but I do have the nut low draw and backdoor heart draw so I decide to keep control of the pot and bet about 70% and am called...Nothing really to get out of that call...I figure he's drawing to the A3 like I am...I know in this game a set or top 2 will most likely raise pot here to try to drive me out...The turn was a brick (sorta)...It gives me now the nut low draw, 2nd nut flush draw, and gutshot nut straight draw...I feel that this draw is strong enough to put a huge amount of pressure on my opponent so I bet pot and am called...At this point I rule out J10, a set, and even 2 pair as a possibility...The river is the biggest [censored] brick in the world...And my opponent bets $1 into me...This did NOT make me happy...I obviously can't call that bet because I have nothing so I either could fold (I thought for about 15 seconds and almost did) or push all-in like I was going to do if he checked to me...Now here's why I pushed all-in:

1. He was betting $1 into a $94 pot...In Hold 'Em this is called a "Post Oak Bluff", a really small bet into a really large pot...With that $1 bet into that pot he's telling me he doesn't like his hand at all...He tried to make a block bet here, but didn't have the balls to put a good portion of his stack at risk...He bets about $7+ there I probably fold because with that bet I don't think I can move him off of his hand if I raise him the rest of his stack...
2. As a preflop raiser I could easily have been raising with A2 so I am representing that I have at least trip deuces...
3. All the hands that he actually could call my all-in with (a set, J10 for the straight) woulda raised me at some point during the flop or turn...
4. He could laydown a weakish offering...This was the only one I was unsure of...

I was able to get him to laydown whatever he had (my guess is something like A365/67)...It could be a lot worse than that, but that's the only hands I would be calling those kinda bets on the flop and turn with...

http://www.pokerhand.org/?381053

vingte · #3 07-13-2006, 01:50 PM

I've got only 1 rule : I never bluff if a low is possible.

I can bluff by representing the nuts :

Paradise Poker
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
8 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $30.35
UTG+1: $49.95
MP1: $20.60
MP2: $35.70
CO: $27.60
Hero: $36.95
SB: $13.70
BB: $74.05

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is Button with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO folds, Hero raises to $2.5, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($8.25, 3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets $6, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($20.25, 2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero checks.

River: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($20.25, 2 players)
MP2 bets $2.5, Hero raises to $27.75, MP2 folds.
Uncalled bets: $25.25 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: $25.25

I Think that villain is on a low draw (only head's up) and we both missed it

Paradise Poker
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
8 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $24.50
UTG+1: $20.90
MP1: $19.20
MP2: $72.00
CO: $58.65
Hero: $47.80
SB: $24.20
BB: $49.00

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is Button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG calls, 4 folds, Hero calls, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($2, 4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $2, 2 folds, UTG calls.

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($6, 2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $6, UTG calls.

River: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($18, 2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $10, UTG folds.
Uncalled bets: $10 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: $18

Or if opponents show too much weakness (though one)

Poker Stars
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $70.55
UTG+1: $14.90
MP1: $40.90
Hero: $51.70
MP3: $10
CO: $29
Button: $33.15
SB: $19.50
BB: $34.70

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is MP2 with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 (poster) checks, CO folds, Button raises to $4.25, 2 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($22.5, 5 players)
UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks, Button checks.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($22.5, 5 players)
UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks, Button checks.

River: 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($22.5, 5 players)
UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets $15, 4 folds.
Uncalled bets: $15 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: $22.5

DavidC · #4 07-13-2006, 04:18 PM

awesome, thanks guys!!

Trumbull · #5 07-13-2006, 04:26 PM

I think vingate gives three fantasic examples of bluffing in PLO8...

1. Like the one I posted, really small bet into really big pot...Just make sure your opponent has enough behind him to fold when you make this play...If he bets like $2.50 into a pot and has like $5 or so behind, this play may not work...

2. Good read of a busted draw...

3. Orphan pot looking to be adopted by the first person to take a stab at it...And I LOVE the size of that bet too...Sometimes an instaneous pot sized bet looks really fishy...But this bet looks "thought out" because he didn't just fire the cursor all the way to the right to bet pot...

Fiasco · #6 07-13-2006, 06:28 PM

Hand #1. I think you got lucky here. A thinking opponent will realize that if you potted the flop, and turned the nut flush draw (or a big flush draw) you would have potted again, or at least bet. If youre up against me and my flush is 9 high or better, youre getting called.

Hnd #2 This one is pretty good, Id bet only $5 on the turn, because this still allows you to put villain all in on the river with a pot size bet if you river a low that will quarter him. This also frees you up to bet only $8 on the river to take the pot down.

Hand #3 Id bet less here. Youre really only trying to represent a 4 here, so you could easily bet $10 or $12 and it would still be believable. Another reason to bet less is that its very possible that someone is checkcalling with a 4 or that the button has a 4.

MarkD · #7 07-13-2006, 07:15 PM

You guys ought to balance this with some of the bluffs you've made that failed.

Fiasco · #8 07-13-2006, 07:16 PM

There are basically three different times that you will bluff the river (at least in a 9 or 10 handed ring game, you will be bluffing much more shorthanded)
#1 when the low fails to get there (or sometimes when it looks like their low might be counterfeited, like when an A or 2 hits on the river)
#2 when nobody has shown any interst in the pot (its checked around to you in late position, or its checked around on the turn, and the river doesnt change things much)
#3 When you have a lock in one direction, and are trying to force out weak hands in the other direction (this is really more of a semi-bluff, although it doesnt fall under slanskys definition of a semi-bluff)

remember that for the bluff to be most effective, they need to be able to put you on a hand that makes sense, and you need to be able to put them on a hand that wont call you.

Heres a good example of bluffing a scary river card/bluffing when the low fails to come. Villain raises it up on the button preflop, probably with an A2xx or AAxx hand (my money is on an A2xx type hand). He pots it when checked to with the nut low draw (possible an uncounterfeitable nut low draw) then bets much less when checked to on the turn, this indicates to me that hes just trying to keep the momentum. The river has to be a very scary card for him, a middle straight is very possible now, and there arent a lot of raising hands that will have it, so I bet out.

Poker Room skin
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
For some reason, my HH didnt have the stack sizes, I assume that Villain and I were pretty deep or I would have raised preflop/wouldnt have called his flop bet.

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls, Hero calls, CO folds, Button raises to $11, 3 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($27, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $27, Hero calls.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($81, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $10, Hero calls.

River: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($101, 2 players)
Hero bets $50, Button folds.
Uncalled bets: $50 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: $101

morphball · #9 07-13-2006, 07:32 PM

You forgot when the board pairs, that is a good time to bet against the right player...

MarkD · #10 07-13-2006, 07:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Poker Room skin
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
For some reason, my HH didnt have the stack sizes, I assume that Villain and I were pretty deep or I would have raised preflop/wouldnt have called his flop bet.

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls, Hero calls, CO folds, Button raises to $11, 3 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($27, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $27, Hero calls.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($81, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $10, Hero calls.

River: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($101, 2 players)
Hero bets $50, Button folds.
Uncalled bets: $50 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: $101

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this flop call is not good.