3/6 Jacks full faces donk on the river against probable quads

[Off Duty]

$3/6 @ Hawaiian Gardens last Saturday. Table is typical loose passive, except for the guy in the 3s who I was frankly concerned was crazy and going to head to the parking lot and start firing. He's not a good player, he's just nuts and scary. 9 players.

UTG limps. Hero Raises UTG+1 with AsJs. Three cold callers back to SB who calls, BB folds and UTG calls (7 sb)

Flop Jh 8s 8d

Action checked to hero who bets. Everyone calls except for button who peals. (13 SB)

Turn Jd

Action folded to Hero who fires. Everyone folds except for the passive weak looking Korean guy in the SB who calls. (8.5 BB)

River 8h

Formerly passive Korean guy is now appears energized and donks. Hero swallows his tounge, announces he's convinced he's been run down, and calls anyway.

(Final pot 10 bb less the rake)

[dchz]

hmm
wtf?

raise the river? plz?

call a 3-bet

or at least you shouldn't swallow your tongue and call down confidently..

[Joker757]

You have to three bet. If the Korean gentelman had an 8 he would have 8's full on the turn and him just calling doesnt seem right to me. He's heads up and passive. He should have come alive on the turn when he hit the full boat if he had an 8.

Think he is either playing the board or has the other J. Most likely has the case J.

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
You have to three bet. If the Korean gentelman had an 8 he would have 8's full on the turn and him just calling doesnt seem right to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

8's full is not a great hand on that turn.

Realistically you only make money raising this river if he's stupid enough to bet playing the board.

[Joker757]

I agree but most weak passive players dont think ahead. All they see is the present. The full boat should have been enough to bring him to life on the turn in my own opinion but I wasnt there so its hard for me to say but based on past experiences I am fairly confident that he has the case J but Im not HOUDINI!!!

[SixForty]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree but most weak passive players dont think ahead. All they see is the present. The full boat should have been enough to bring him to life on the turn in my own opinion but I wasnt there so its hard for me to say but based on past experiences I am fairly confident that he has the case J but Im not HOUDINI!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

If anything, an 8 would have (should have) come alive on the flop when he had trips. He may have been slow playing it.

When the turn hits, an 8 is NOT going to come alive, since it now loses to any J. Especially a passive player - they are too afraid of someone else having the nuts!

When he comes alive on the river, it is almost surely the 8. Depending on the opponent and how good of a read I have, this is either a call or a fold. This is never a raising situation.

Think about what happens if Hero raises here:

- if Villain has the 8, he will reraise (or maybe just call if he is an idiot) either way Hero loses that last bet that he put in (possibly 2 if Villain reraises and Hero still calls)

- if Villain just has a J here, then Hero only splits the pot, and any raise that Hero puts in is just returned to him, so Hero doesn't profit

- if Villain was bluffing with nothing (which given his passivity, he is doubtfully doing here), he will most likely fold now, instead of calling to play the board, and Hero does not profit from the raise

So raising is at best a break even play, and at worst a losing play. There is NO point at all in raising this river.

Call, and hope for a chop. Unless you know the Villain well enough that he won't bet here without the 8. Then fold.

[Joker757]

Good point! One instance that I just wrote with out thinking about the situatuion, for some reason in a HURRY tonight. Makes perfect sense!

[Off Duty]

I do commmercial sales for a living. Tells are a way of life for me even if I never play another hand of poker again, although I think people who do sales training refer to it as 'nonverbal communication'. When I started playing poker, I started in NL and was a winning player right off the bat simply through observation skills. Fundamentals? Pot odds? What's that?

I've only gotten that 'energized' look when somebody drew to a straight flush or quads (I play a lot of Omaha and it happens a lot in that game). I knew I was hurt but I didn't know how bad. I couldn't quite rationalize tossing a full house on a 40:1 bad beat so I paid him off.

He had the case jack and an offsuit four for a chop.

In retrospect I think he thought I had aces or kings and figured he'd got me drawing dead after a set hit the board, but I may be giving him too much credit. He did call 1 1/2 bets with a J6o in the worst possible position, so who knows.

Thank you to all who responded for confirming I had my head on straight.

[SMACK BOOTY]

[ QUOTE ]
If anything, an 8 would have (should have) come alive on the flop when he had trips. He may have been slow playing it.

When the turn hits, an 8 is NOT going to come alive, since it now loses to any J. Especially a passive player - they are too afraid of someone else having the nuts!

When he comes alive on the river, it is almost surely the 8. Depending on the opponent and how good of a read I have, this is either a call or a fold. This is never a raising situation.

Think about what happens if Hero raises here:

- if Villain has the 8, he will reraise (or maybe just call if he is an idiot) either way Hero loses that last bet that he put in (possibly 2 if Villain reraises and Hero still calls)

- if Villain just has a J here, then Hero only splits the pot, and any raise that Hero puts in is just returned to him, so Hero doesn't profit

- if Villain was bluffing with nothing (which given his passivity, he is doubtfully doing here), he will most likely fold now, instead of calling to play the board, and Hero does not profit from the raise

So raising is at best a break even play, and at worst a losing play. There is NO point at all in raising this river.

Call, and hope for a chop. Unless you know the Villain well enough that he won't bet here without the 8. Then fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

EXCELLENT synopsis.