ever good to cap a street with a pair?

Tastysnacks · #1 01-19-2006, 03:27 AM

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (4.40 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, CO folds, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (5.20 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero calls.

River: (8.20 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, UTG folds, Hero caps, BB calls.

Final Pot: 17.20 BB

I guess what I don't understand is what is the proper way to play TPTK or TPGK? Is it never good to cap a street with a pair no matter what opponent? Would it be good to just call when raised when I have top pair? I figured opponent for KJ, KT, K9, K8 but certainly not what he showed me. Results later.

moose47 · #2 01-19-2006, 03:33 AM

This is way too aggressive against an unknown. Just call the river.

And there are times when it is correct to cap with just a pair. Most of those times involve when you are up against a maniac who is betting and raising with any two cards. In the absence of such a read here I would definitely slow down after he donks the turn.

milesdyson · #3 01-19-2006, 03:34 AM

the answer is yes, but this is not an example.

raise preflop. your turn->river action makes no sense.

raise the turn if you want to raise. call the river if you want to call.

your river cap is hottible.

jakbse · #4 01-19-2006, 04:36 AM

this board is way to scary to even raise the river against two opponents. Possibly you could cap the flop in a blind steal war with TPTK against an aggresive player with some mainac tendencies

ESKiMO-SiCKNE5S · #5 01-19-2006, 08:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
the answer is yes, but this is not an example.

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when he bets the turn he could have 4x where x is another board card, 58 which hit his straight, the flush which hit, or even AK which still has you beat

k000k · #6 01-19-2006, 09:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I guess what I don't understand is what is the proper way to play TPTK or TPGK? Is it never good to cap a street with a pair no matter what opponent? Would it be good to just call when raised when I have top pair? I figured opponent for KJ, KT, K9, K8 but certainly not what he showed me. Results later.

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1st if all, I'd raise that preflop all day.

I'd never cap that river, 1 pair can never be close to the nuts. That board is coordinated, there's a str8 and a flush possible. A straight-flush is possible. Sets are possible. 2-pairs are possible.

Don't make a bet if you won't win when called at least 1/2 the time.. Anyone who calls your river raise has you beat... Anyone who 3-bets you back has you REALLY beat. That river cap is suicide.

The turn stop-n-go after your raise puts me on high alert. I'd call 1 bet on the river and expect to be beat.

jrz1972 · #7 01-19-2006, 10:16 AM

The preflop limp is really bad. It might be okay to limp with this if you saw 6 or 7 guys limp in front of you, but failing to raise two limpers with a hand like this is a big leak if this is your routine play.

The flop is fine.

When your opponent pulls a stop-and-go on the turn, you need to turn the autopilot off. Think about what your opponent is putting you on. When you raised the flop, you told him you had TP. Granted, you could be raising the flop with other holdings, but thats the most common one and that's the one villain will put you on.

On the turn, villain now says he's not scared of your top pair. Ominously, the turn card completes both flush and straight draws, both of which are completely consistent with villain's flop action.

Suppose for the moment that you didn't have the Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (turn it into the Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]). In that case you would still want to go ahead and call down, hoping that villain is getting clever with something like K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or somesuch. With your actual hand containing a redraw, you definitely want to call the turn and by the time you get the river the pot will be large enough to warrant showing down, but you will usually be beaten if you don't improve.

Always think about what you've told villain about your hand. Is your hand stronger than what you've shown so far? If so, you can stick in an extra raise here and there. But when you've accurately described the strength of your hand earlier, you need to slow down when villain tells you he can beat that hand.

Omgwtfpwned · #8 01-19-2006, 11:08 AM

Yuck.

Part of the problem here is that you're neglecting that your Villain posted blind. He could literally have any two cards with equal probability. If he shows down something like 85o, then you can't fault him for playing it, since he already posted. Given the action, I would not be surprised to see him on either a flush or a straight that filled in on the turn.

Consider the action as a conversation. BB backs off of your flop raise, then fires again on the turn. This often means he had a weak made hand or a strong draw that improved. You're fine calling down, but capping the river seems maniacal. (If you're so sure you have him beat, why not raise the turn anyway? Waiting to the river to go nuts just gives him another card to draw out on your vulnerable hand.)

Raise preflop.

EDIT: Changed 86o to 85o to accurately reflect my thought (filled straight).

FloppyJ · #9 01-19-2006, 11:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The preflop limp is really bad. It might be okay to limp with this if you saw 6 or 7 guys limp in front of you, but failing to raise two limpers with a hand like this is a big leak if this is your routine play.

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I do not understand why it might be okay to limp KQ with many limpers in front of you. Could someone explain this please?

jrz1972 · #10 01-19-2006, 11:40 AM

KQo is not a particularly good multiway hand. In LP, it's normally woth a pfr, but if you have a bunch of limpers it is frequently better just to limp along with these sorts of off-suit broadway hands. ATo is another hand in the same category.

(You're definitely going to raise with AKo or AQo though, and you would definitely raise KQs or ATs as well).

FWIW, I usually go ahead and raise in these spots anyway, but it's more of a "four card flop" raise than usual.