I'm lost: Cbetting against calling stations.

begbie100 · #1 07-03-2006, 03:57 AM

Going through my recent hands, I noticed concerning trend. I'm loosing lots of 12-14BB sized pots against very loose calling stations, VPIP 60-80, went to showdown 30-40%.

Hand usually goes: CS limps, I raise 5BB with a good hand from position, CS calls, CS checks the flop, I pot it, CS calls...

Obviously I'm cbetting too much against calling stations, but I don't know what I should do. Just betting the goods seems too easy to read. Should I lower the times I cbet to something like 30%? Should I consider 2 barreling?

Deciding when to cbet by flop structure doesn't help much against these opponents, because:

- If there's flushdraw possible, they always call it, sometimes also bd-flushdraw. 2barreling here doesn't help you on the turn since they are surely calling again.

- If there's ace on the board, presenting ace usually fails, because they just loves to call you allway with A4o kind of hands. Also these players don't mind calling you down with midpair when there's ace on flop.

- Paired boards, they don't believe your bet and calls with pocket pairs and ace high

- Straightdraw (or even gutshot) possible on flop, they'll call.

The more I think about this, I'm starting to think that I should just valuebet. They're calling so much that it's profitable and they probably just plays they own cards, so they don't notice that I'm betting only with a hand against them? It just feels so awkward to raise preflop 5xBB with AK and give up on the ragged flop.

GivenToFly · #2 07-03-2006, 04:25 AM

If I find players who call WAY too much I usually start raising less and limping more. See more flops, value bet, and out play them. Obviously don't stop raising with AK, and I can't see myself not cbetting in position against these guys with hands like AK.. however since they call too much your missed-flop cbets are value bets a lot of the time...

what limit are you playing.. at 100NL there are plenty of fish but it doesn't seem like there are tons of these uber calling stations..

begbie100 · #3 07-03-2006, 04:33 AM

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however since they call too much your missed-flop cbets are value bets a lot of the time...

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True, but it's really hard to know when you're ahead and when you're not.

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what limit are you playing.. at 100NL there are plenty of fish but it doesn't seem like there are tons of these uber calling stations..

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I play NL50 on party, and I use aggressive table selection with data mining + loooong buddy list.

GivenToFly · #4 07-03-2006, 04:48 AM

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True, but it's really hard to know when you're ahead and when you're not.

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Are these crazy calling stations aggressive too? Will they try to knock you off your hand when you check turns? I think taking a free card isn't bad.. if they have nothing you can take pots down with A high.. sometimes you'll hit and you can make a nice value bet or pick off a bluff.. not to mention the times when you hit the flop and allow them to make big mistakes by calling down

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I play NL50 on party, and I use aggressive table selection with data mining + loooong buddy list

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awesome.. my table selection blows.. i have no table selection skills

begbie100 · #5 07-03-2006, 04:58 AM

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Are these crazy calling stations aggressive too? Will they try to knock you off your hand when you check turns? I think taking a free card isn't bad.. if they have nothing you can take pots down with A high.. sometimes you'll hit and you can make a nice value bet or pick off a bluff.. not to mention the times when you hit the flop and allow them to make big mistakes by calling down

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This is probably short therm variance, but yes, they seem to stop their calling station habits, when they have successfully caught me on bluff. It's like they are playing table cop on the flop and when I check the turn they're happy to bet me out of the hand. Or it goes showdown with no futher bets and villain shows pocket pair or flopped mid/bottom pair.

Maybe I have become too aggressive preflop raiser and cbetter because all the good pooh-bah posts about aggressiveness. All these posters probably plays limit or two higher, so there cbets work much better.

GivenToFly · #6 07-03-2006, 01:44 PM

What I have learned is to pay some attention to your image at the table. If I feel like I am playing super aggresive and people are starting to play back at me I immediately start to tone it down.

Sometimes I've been raising pf quite a lot lately and there will be a person who will start constantly repopping me pf. Instead of being stubborn and continuing the onslaught of aggression.. I'll stop raising my borderline hands.. and wait for some nicer ones.. or not make my default cbet on the flop

If I feel like I'm getting a lot of respect or whatever I fire up again.

ps: do u have pahud? I like to have stats like: fold to cbet, raise cbet, etc. in my pop-up windows.. this can help the decision making on the flop at times... esp if your multitabling

MattsTheMan · #7 07-03-2006, 01:54 PM

I think changing gears works. If they call down when you c-bet next time make sure that you have a good hand and use same c-bet size. Against these vpip 60-80 players it seems to help a bit if u c-bet by potting it they seem to respect such a bet more.

Sometimes its good to only check down a hand aswell if you c-bet 10 hands out of 10 they will ofcause become suspicious.

If you make middle pair or something just try to check it down and show a pretty decent hand next time they think you have something when you are c-betting.

Spartan1983 · #8 07-03-2006, 02:15 PM

quote" I'm loosing lots of 12-14BB sized pots"

loose = not tight, lose = opposite of win

begbie100 · #9 07-04-2006, 10:11 AM

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I like to have stats like: fold to cbet, raise cbet, etc. in my pop-up windows.. this can help the decision making on the flop at times... esp if your multitabling

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Thanks for the tip. I use only the default VP$IP/PFR/AF/Hands. I'm going to try this out today.

begbie100 · #10 07-04-2006, 10:19 AM

also, GivenToFly MattsTheMan, you are both right about changing gears.
I may have some tuff_fishiness inside me time to time. "OMG that idiot called my PFR bet AGAIN, let's see if he calls my cbet again!.." [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

And my Cbet is always pot sized.

And Spartan1983, english is not my primary language. So I make stupid spelling/grammar mistakes all the time.