4 AQs hands that I'm worried about (.5/1 and 1/2)

zolltron · #1 07-02-2006, 06:35 PM

AQs is a leak in my game. I've identified several mistakes that I routinely make with this hand. (Calling in obvious raise or fold situations, for instance.) In so doing I found a couple of interesting hands where I'm not sure what to do. My apologies for the length. Here they are:

HAND #1
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Both BB and MP2 are LOOSE and moderately aggressive. In particular, I had seen MP2 raise with TPNK before.

Party Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.5/$1
10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
4 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6.5SB, 3 players)
BB bets, MP2 raises, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, MP2 calls.

I feel good about the three-bet here. I had seen MP2 do exactly this with a hand I beat, and he also may well be doing this with a draw or some other weak hand.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (7.75BB, 3 players)
BB bets, MP2 raises, Hero...

Now this is troubling... the action suggests I'm probably way behind, but any particular hand they might hold now is pretty inconsistent with their earlier action. If BB did indeed have a monster why not go for the CR? What hand would MP2 raise with on the flop that hit here?

Can I fold in this spot or is the action so fishy I should call down?

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HAND #2
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SB is loose and moderately aggressive, UTG is a calling station.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 4 folds, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls.

Flop: (7 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, UTG calls, Hero...

Here's a spot where I think I should raise, but I'm not confident. The bet maybe an attempt by a moderately aggressive opponent trying to take down a pot, and the call means almost nothing. What do you think?

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HAND #3
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So many players, I won't include reads. Most of them were various forms of loose passive to moderately aggressive.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (14.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, Hero bets, BB folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls.

Turn: (9.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, Hero...

So many callers and that turn completed a lot of draws. Should I still bet to avoid a free card or is the risk of a reraise so high that I should check behind and try to get to the showdown cheaply?

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HAND #4
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No read on UTG. Other players are mostly loose passive.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, UTG 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Hero...

Just against UTG, I raise here, but with two callers in-between I'm less confident.

Thanks in advance for your comments!

-z

CrMenace · #2 07-02-2006, 06:57 PM

*grunch*

Hand 1- your opponents' play is so bizzare it is hard to say what to do. MP2 likely has Ax or Kx. BB makes me nervous with the second donk- maybe has a four. I think the best plan is to call down, and hope he doesn't.

Hand 2- The donk after the cold call makes me nervous that SB has a J. Even considering that, however, For the two overs and BDFD, I think you have odds to see the turn.

Hand 3- bet the turn again. Odds are you are still way ahead.

Hand 4- raise. The pot is large and you have a strong hand.

zolltron · #3 07-03-2006, 01:40 AM

Thanks for the response. One question:

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2- The donk after the cold call makes me nervous that SB has a J. Even considering that, however, For the two overs and BDFD, I think you have odds to see the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think if I'm going to the turn the best play is to raise. It has a little fold equity, and may get me a free card. What do you think?

-z

MacGuyV · #4 07-03-2006, 08:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the response. One question:

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2- The donk after the cold call makes me nervous that SB has a J. Even considering that, however, For the two overs and BDFD, I think you have odds to see the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think if I'm going to the turn the best play is to raise. It has a little fold equity, and may get me a free card. What do you think?

-z

[/ QUOTE ]

It has almost no fold equity and why would you take the free card if they check to you and you probably have the best hand? Just call the flop. If SB leads again into 2 players he likely has an 8 and you can fold. If he doesn't he has a draw. If UTG bets or raises the turn he likely has a J. If they both check you're probably good so bet the turn and check the river UI.

Also, call the flop and raise a bunch of turns in that last hand; flop raise is pretty bad imo.

Ampelmann · #5 07-03-2006, 08:48 AM

Hand 4:

I'd call the flop and raise a safe (i.e. non-[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]) turn.

mojack · #6 07-03-2006, 11:29 AM

Thanks to the OP because these are the common situations that I would like to improve on.

Hand 1 - Seems to me that this is a fold. You need to call 2 BB's in a hand that you are either behind in or, at best, will be splitting between either or both opponents. I know you said they were loose, but I would have to have zero respect for their game to continue. Perhaps I would be leaving good money on the table, and that would explain my bank roll.

Hand 2 - I dunno, probably depends on my mood that day. I can't see the move with the greatest EV and I wonder if thats because fold/call/raise are all pretty close. I guess I lean towards folding. I could see myself peeling one and spiking the turn only to lose 3 more BB's when I was drawing virtually dead. So I drop it.

Hand 3 - turn card sucks, but I bet it anyways. If you go into hiding everytime a possible flush shows up you will lose out on lots of money. Yes the flush will beat us sometimes, but I like the calling stations supplementing me when they don't. I don't wait for the non spade river to bet because we are to vulnerable.

Hand 4- this is a spot where I would just call and wait for a non heart on the turn to raise.

Any responses to this would be great, as I feel these situations are so common that they can effect my bankroll significantly.

zolltron · #7 07-03-2006, 05:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks to the OP because these are the common situations that I would like to improve on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad I'm not the only one that runs into problems with these hands. Looking back through my hand histories, I notice lots of situations where I took the worst of the three options. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 1 - Seems to me that this is a fold. You need to call 2 BB's in a hand that you are either behind in or, at best, will be splitting between either or both opponents. I know you said they were loose, but I would have to have zero respect for their game to continue. Perhaps I would be leaving good money on the table, and that would explain my bank roll.

[/ QUOTE ]

The more I think about it the more confident I am folding is the right option. On the call now I'm getting approximately 1:5 on my call, but there is some chance I'll have to call 1 or 2 more BB on the turn. Its also pretty likely I'll have to call at least 1BB on the river. In the best of all worlds, I'm getting 2:7 on calling down. I have to assign the probability that neither of them has a 4 at around 1/3. That's hard to do with two players who've shown strength, even if it did appear mysterious. I think the right play would be to fold here.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 3 - turn card sucks, but I bet it anyways. If you go into hiding everytime a possible flush shows up you will lose out on lots of money. Yes the flush will beat us sometimes, but I like the calling stations supplementing me when they don't. I don't wait for the non spade river to bet because we are to vulnerable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was also worried about the straight draws as well, but point taken. Only the QT makes a straight, but now any Q or any T has a draw, as do high spades. I think betting here is clearly the right option, re-evaluating if I get C/Red. If I do, who C/Rs becomes important and the decision will change radically.

Thanks for your responses!

-z