Gaining action by...

[Jake (The Snake)]

While reading through the recent thread of favorite posts I came across this post by SpicyF. I thought it would be interesting to hear what members of the small stakes forum think of the following quote:

[ QUOTE ]
$100/$200 shorthanded he at pokerstars.com

Seat 1: Spyder44 ($8892 in chips)
Seat 2: The Dream ($4489 in chips)
Seat 3: ambi ($4693 in chips)
Seat 4: SpicyF ($3898 in chips)


ambi: posts small blind $50
SpicyF: posts big blind $100


SpicyF peeks down at Kh Kd, yum!

Spyder44 raises
(Spyder44 who I also know to be a very aggressive player.)

The Dream and ambi folds

I 3bet but contemplated just calling out of the BB, since I rarely ever give up the BB in a 4handed game for 1 raise. Reasoning behind calling only was that I could generate more action later in the hand, but the conclusion I came to is that I will probarly generate MORE action if I play back at him, and that he can put me on a few hands, rather than a wide range.

That itself might seem a bit strange (gaining action by allowing him to know I have a good hand that is), but I'm sure many of you will understand what I mean by it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Small Stakes is probably not the right forum for this, but I know there are some posters here who are capable of tackling this idea.

[MacGuyV]

I think that thought process has merit to it against a certain kind of player: mainly, Lags whose play is driven by emotion & ego and try too hard to win every pot and think blind battles are a genital-meausring contest. It's almost always correct to fastplay this player. To the opposite end of that KK hand, there have been times where I really wanted to 3bet QT or 98s to take initiative on high card flops, but opted not to because I just felt it would make villian angry and likely to checkraise bluff me.
Against most players though, I'm all for preflop deception in HU play.

[XmasXmas]

further down in the post he talks about how the KK hand is not really a good example of what he's talking about.

[James.]

[ QUOTE ]
further down in the post he talks about how the KK hand is not really a good example of what he's talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

i could be wrong, but i think what SpicyF was referring to and the excerpt Jake is referring to are different. Jake is focusing on the preflop idea of whether more action is stimulated against this type of player through deception or through playing back and letting him narrow(to a certain extent)his range.

[Haupt_234]

The post is a little screwey but I am guessing Spicy raised, the villan made it 3, and spicy contemplated calling but capped....

I think this is the reason I usually don't slowplay something like AA/KK preflop and merely call a 3bet instead of capping. I do it every once in a while, but rarely.

I feel SpicyF may have raised to do the same thing, but it is magnetized more 4 handed. If Spicy raises and just calls a 3bet, then comes to life by either bet/3betting the flop, c/ring the flop, or c/ring the turn, I think the opponent is likely to slowdown faster than if Spicy had 3bet preflop.

This is because Spicy played it much like a set (a small-medium PP that raised PF and called a reraise) or possibly something like 2 pair (given the board type).

Spicy obviously isn't an idiot and doesn't play against idiots, so when he raises preflop and calls a 3bet only to come alive on the flop/turn, a player with a hand even as strong as an overpair like TT,JJ,QQ+ will slowdown. They aren't going to continue to push since they cannot put him on a high PP preflop, but likely something that nailed the flop and "sucked out" on them. But, if Spicy caps, they can put him on either AK,AQs, or a higher pocket pair. Given this range, they will likely play back at Spicy more since "he may be pushing overs or his pocket pair may be smaller".

Those are my thoughts, anyway.

Haupt_234

[James.]

well, i guess i'll take a shot. my comments are directed solely at the preflop play. that is, choosing to 3bet over calling(for deception). first off let me say the optimal scenario for smoothcalling for deception might be exemplified if i'm on the button with KK and i raise and the BB 3bets, i smoothcall. couple the deception with my position and the strength of my hand and it can be valuable to only call in this spot.

when playing out of the BB, however, we do not have the luxury of position. calling preflop against a thinking opponent and then going crazy on a relatively dry board will tend to slow him down. reraising preflop and going crazy on a dry board will have a tendency to NOT slow him down because now he EXPECTS you to play strongly. it may have the added benefit of him trying to push you off a smaller PP or a hand like AK, AQ! this play also tends to encourage him to think you are getting out line and we all know that if someone is going to get out of line, they are going to do it in a blind steal battle.

of course the question is how does shrinking your range in the head of a semithinking opponent elicit more action? do i think i answered it? no.

[James.]

a thinking player will put us on a certain range when we 3bet. he will weight the most likely hands as big/decent aces and pocket pairs. a good portion of these hands he may think he can push us off of(sorry to end the sentence with a preposition). him putting pressure on us to blow us off our hand is increasing the amount of action he is giving us, right? that coupled with the fact that it may become a genital measuring contest anyway given the situation, i can see how 3betting PF in this spot gets you the most action.

[XmasXmas]

you two are like...sooooo pooh-bahing it up.

[n.s.]

I'll give this a shot...

If spicy just calls the raise, his possible range is huge (practically any 2 cards). The 3-bet narrows his range, but it's still relatively large - this is an agressive 4-handed game, after all. Spicy's 3-betting range probably includes lots of big card hands here and lots of medium pairs - it's certainly a whole lot wider than the usual AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK range.

So, when the flop comes rags, villain will think that it most likely missed Spicy's hand (there are a lot more combos of big card hands than big/medium pairs) and Spicy is going to get a lot of action as the agressive villain tries to steal the pot with AK or jams for value with his 77.

Had spicy just called PF and the flop came rags, villain would have to wonder what Spicy has, especially when he calls or check-raises the inevitable flop bet. He might slow down a lot sooner.

Basically if villain has AK or 77, and the flop comes

3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

villain is going to play a lot more agressively against a pf 3-better than a pf caller out of the blind.

[slavic]

We have a bit of a lagish player initially raising, and if you have played with these guys and gals long enough you know that they tend to be good hand readers. They should be after all, they play many hands and pay for good bit more information. So you 3 bet from the BB, in a full ring game with several callers we could narrow your hand down to the utmost of rock solid, but in a 4 handed game it could be any ace, pair, two big broadway cards, or just a wild brain fart. The point is that many of these hands are going to have a hard time continuing post flop even though they may be best.

On several different types of flops, you are going to be tested, because the other joy the lag has is that he is hard to place on a hand. So you 3 bet with presto, 2 broadway cards flop and you get raised on the turn. What now? Just because he has nothing it won't stop an action player.