Too passive w/TPTK?

PWHerman · #1 06-25-2006, 04:46 PM

I think one of my biggest holes is my fundamental misunderstanding of river play. I think I constantly miss value bets while betting hands that I really shouldn't.

In this hand, I just didn't see villain (no reads ... it was like my 5th hand or so) calling a bet with a worse hand even though there were no draws out there.

Paradise Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (12 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls, MP3 folds, CO raises, Button calls, Hero 3-bets, BB folds, UTG folds, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (11.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Button folds, Hero calls.

River: (15.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 17.50 BB

Big Folder · #2 06-25-2006, 04:48 PM

I think this is fine. I'm guessing the 4 didn't help him unless he picked up a flush draw and wanted to semibluff with a pair+flush draw. Either way you have to see a showdown with this hand in this big of a pot, but raising doesn't make sense here. You showed aggression preflop, 3-bet on the flop and he still wanted to raise you on the turn. Calling down on the turn makes sense.

mrjetguy · #3 06-25-2006, 05:04 PM

I think the turn is a close choice between betting or just checking. The only thing he raises you on the flop with when another person has called that you have beat is a straight draw. Which is a possibility since he limped PF. If you think he has a straight draw bet the turn, otherwise check/call down.

Manhammer · #4 06-25-2006, 05:30 PM

I like. 3-betting the turn would feel pretty spewy. Once we get popped on the turn, unless villan will get crazy w/ KT, K9, or some kind of draw, I think we have to figure him for something like K8, Q8, 88, or even KQ (some don't like to raise KQo). Easy call down from the turn raise.

detruncate · #5 06-25-2006, 07:50 PM

Villain is representing a lot of strength vs a pfr'er. I wouldn't expect to win this hand very often absent a LAG read.

If he's on a draw, there's not much point in betting the river as he's almost certainly going to fold (or possibly raise, which you can't feel good about calling readless). Far better to check and hope to induce a bluff. Worse Ks or Qs or worse one pair hands will usually bet if they saw fit to raise the flop and turn... and if they check through so be it... he spewed an extra BB on the turn to make up for it.

Fairly easy check/call vs unknowns.

lacrymosa · #6 06-25-2006, 08:05 PM

I like it. CO showed strength on every street, so he could have an array of hands that could beat you. It's a definite to see this to a showdown, but you want to probably minimize any potential losses.

Romulus141 · #7 06-25-2006, 08:24 PM

I'm liking this line. Your flop 3-bet pushed out some players, and the bet out on the turn was a good continuation. You don't want to bet this river, the CO has been too raise happy, but the pot is big enough to call down in. Expect to be beaten a lot, but you should win enough times to make a nice profit.

camerondiggs · #8 06-25-2006, 08:50 PM

I dont think you would be value betting here. You would just be donk betting to get raised again. If he hit a set he is loving those bets. Call it down and probably lose most of the time.

Point Blank · #9 06-28-2006, 02:50 AM

if CO or Button are aggro does anybody go for a check-raise on the flop?

Elke · #10 06-28-2006, 05:42 AM

My read:

a) you didn't get capped on the flop so I take two pair or trips out of the equation.

b)consider that you got a couple callers after your flop bet so he has equity to pump with any open ender, which is very likely on this board.

c)the turn card was a total dud, and for him to raise the guy who has shown nothing but blind aggression is either a donk play, or more likely he picked up a flush draw to go along with his draw or top pair. Personally I wouldn't slow down here knowing that the turn was 90% useless to him.

d) when the river bricks, he absolutely calls us down with KJ, or QT, and may even give us a crying call with a busted draw like ATs