Maximizing Payoff

ncboiler · #1 06-24-2006, 02:32 PM

I think a big leak of mine is maximizing the payoff on a good made hand. For example:

Party Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
8 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises, 3 folds, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7.4SB, 2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG+1 folds.
Uncalled bets: 2SB returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: 5.7BB

Should I have just called villian's raise and waited for the turn to get jiggy on any non- [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Grease · #2 06-24-2006, 02:37 PM

I'm really glad you asked this, because I have the tendency to be confused as to jam on the flop, or get sexy on the turn.

I try to mix it up, but I don't have a problem with this. If he has spades, he'll call the 3-bet, and if he misses on the turn, you get another bet from him.

The problem is, we really don't know what he has, and if he has another A, then just calling now might be best, since you can squeeze an extra SB out on the turn, but if he has something else, well, just calling here and letting him bluff again might be best too.

Yeah, I'm thoroughly lost when it comes to situations like this.

What does everyone else think?

Haupt_234 · #3 06-24-2006, 02:39 PM

I think you know you played this fine. Mixing it up is good, though. If there is ever a time to call a flop c/r and raise the turn, it is definitely here and I do it quite often in this spot- but not all of the time.

You just got unlucky that he folded here, NH.

Haupt_234

crablegs33 · #4 06-24-2006, 04:10 PM

i think it's fine... if you feel like villain was willing to drop A-J or the likes here, i'm raping him for several pots later in that session...

sometimes i like a call of the flop c/r, and then donking the turn if he is pretty aggro...

this hand needs to played this way more often than not, particularly on 2-flush boards...

WalkAmongUs · #5 06-25-2006, 12:12 AM

I think you played it fine. i'd be more inclined to just call his flop raise and nail him on the turn if the flop was rainbow.

also, not that many opponents are going to check-raise you and then fold to a 3 bet on the flop.

(i'm sure he had a pocket pair lower than an A, tried to represent the A, and your 3-bet told him you had it so he dumped.)

JJNJustin · #6 06-25-2006, 12:41 AM

Normally in this situation I am going to narrow it down to what hands my opponent could have that I beat, in this case a pair lower than aces, a pair of aces with a lower kicker, or a spade draw, and hands that beat me, such as aces up, or a set.

So most of the time here you're looking at a pair lower than aces. After that you're looking at aces with a lower kicker, then a spade draw and sets. Aces up is unlikely here because there are no other face cards on board.

You have to think, with your 3-bet preflop, if he cant beat pair of aces and he has reason to believe you have a pair of aces, he's going to fold. So your job here is to play in such a way as to encourage him to stay with his hand. Recognize that if he has a pair lower than yours he has very few outs against you and the pot is also relatively small. Recognize that heads up there are no other opponents drawing against you. If he has a big pair, dont encourage him to lay it down correctly. Give him the false hope that his huge preflop hand is still good.

I imagine his plan is to raise you on the flop in position to try to get free card on the turn or some other crap like that.

I usually only play AK aggressively like the way you played it if there are multiple opponents. Heads up sometimes (especially if I think I got my opponent crushed, which you will most of the time on this board) many times I just soft play it. Remember, too, that your opponent may have nothing at all especially if he is a loose raiser Especially if I'm in position. It's nice to be in position too, that way if my opponent checks I can still bet.

All-in-all, though, the difference between softplaying is playing how you did is very insignificant. Concentrate on other things and dont worry about getting value bets on the turn and river, they are not as important as maximizing your chance of winning pots.

-J

XmasXmas · #7 06-25-2006, 01:22 AM

usually i let my opponent, the texture of the board, and what i think the perception of my overall game by my opponent is decide what i do. i generally call a c/r and fold ui on the turn w/ a lot of hands that missed (or JJ on this board). since hero has position, getting checked through isn't an issue here. since villain is an EP raiser, it's a fairly safe bet that he's not doing this w/ a flush draw. because the board is spread out, we're not worried about a straight. given all of these factors, i'd have to go w/ the turn raise.

ncboiler · #8 06-25-2006, 01:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
usually i let my opponent, the texture of the board, and what i think the perception of my overall game by my opponent is decide what i do. i generally call a c/r and fold ui on the turn w/ a lot of hands that missed (or JJ on this board). since hero has position, getting checked through isn't an issue here. since villain is an EP raiser, it's a fairly safe bet that he's not doing this w/ a flush draw. because the board is spread out, we're not worried about a straight. given all of these factors, i'd have to go w/ the turn raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Appreciate all the input but WTF is this?

JustZak · #9 06-25-2006, 01:43 AM

I think the line here depends on the opponent. But against a normal tag I think the best line is almost always to call the flop c/r and raise any turn. Since the ace of spades is out the number of flush draw combos any non lag is gonna have here is pretty low, so a turn spade really isn't going to deter me from raising. You are usually way ahead here, and 3-betting this flop is only going to fold hands that you would rather have call. Hands like 99 and KQ may now fold, and you lose half a bet that you would otherwise gain from a weaker ace by waiting for the turn.

JJNJustin · #10 06-25-2006, 02:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
usually i let my opponent, the texture of the board, and what i think the perception of my overall game by my opponent is decide what i do. i generally call a c/r and fold ui on the turn w/ a lot of hands that missed (or JJ on this board). since hero has position, getting checked through isn't an issue here. since villain is an EP raiser, it's a fairly safe bet that he's not doing this w/ a flush draw. because the board is spread out, we're not worried about a straight. given all of these factors, i'd have to go w/ the turn raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Appreciate all the input but WTF is this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Between your avatar and this post I am laughing my ass off right now. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

-j