Top set, possible straight

Full Metal · #1 06-21-2006, 01:16 AM

Just got to the table, no reads, I've been pretty tight.

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha High, $1.00 BB (8 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Button ($178.80)
Hero ($141.45)
BB ($92.50)
UTG ($148.15)
UTG+1 ($110.20)
MP1 ($122.50)
MP2 ($45.80)
CO ($68.45)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls $1, UTG+1 calls $1, MP1 calls $1, MP2 calls $1, 1 fold, Button calls $1, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($7) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7 players)
Hero bets $3, BB calls $3, UTG calls $3, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls $3, MP2 folds, Button folds.

Turn: ($19) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets $10, MP1 calls $10, Hero calls $10, BB folds.

River: ($49) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $46.6, MP1 folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $95.60

Results in white below: 
UTG doesn't show.
Outcome: UTG wins $95.60.

Ribbo · #2 06-21-2006, 01:25 AM

Duh, easy fold.

beset · #3 06-21-2006, 02:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Just got to the table, no reads, I've been pretty tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

This would seem to make it a pretty clear fold.

catlover · #4 06-21-2006, 02:55 AM

Hero should have bet more on the flop. UTG should have bet more on the turn. River is a good fold.

TheRempel · #5 06-21-2006, 02:59 AM

Fold. Also don't play like a goof on the flop. Pot it or check-raise but don't ever make this kind of weak lead at a passive table.

Ribbo · #6 06-21-2006, 03:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold. Also don't play like a goof on the flop. Pot it or check-raise but don't ever make this kind of weak lead at a passive table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Leading out weak is absolutely fine. The table doesn't necessarily have to be passive. Half betting the pot from early position will often get a raise from middle/bottom set and top 2 pair. River is check fold though.

Ribbo · #7 06-21-2006, 03:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hero should have bet more on the flop. UTG should have bet more on the turn. River is a good fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

No Sir, you don't automatically have to bet the pot on the flop. There is little chance of getting a raise if you bet the pot out. Half betting the pot allows someone with a worse made hand to come over the top of you without suspecting top set. Plus you're not necessarily favourite at this point, and with being out of position, telling everyone your hand right off the bat isn't always the best option.

TheRempel · #8 06-21-2006, 04:03 AM

This is all purely conjecture, but I would guess that the hero would never make this bet in early position with a draw or two pair in a multiway pot. This actually allows middle and bottom set to get away from the hand cheaply as they can raise a relatively small amount and fold to the inveitable reraise. If you're playing against morons that fall for this move on a regular basis and get their whole stack in with middle or bottom set, then they are gonna raise your pot sized bet anyway. The pot is not large enough to be screwing around with this kind of bet, especially when you don't have a solid gestalt.

If you're trying to be deceptive a check-raise is much better since if it fails and gets checked around, there is very little chance someone is going to hit a higher set and you'll most likely win a much larger pot if you do fill and you've allowed someone else to hit an underfull. Worrying about not being the favorite here is retarded; you're up against a huge draw maybe 1/20 times and multiple players drawing are often blocking each other so bad that they have 12 or fewer outs between them.

Troll_Inc · #9 06-21-2006, 07:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: ($7) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7 players)
Hero bets $3, BB calls $3, UTG calls $3, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls $3, MP2 folds, Button folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's a vote for check-raise. My rule of thumb is that with that many people seeing the flop someone should have hit something and/or is willing to make some sort of bet behind you on a draw or bluff.

Only if someone in the hand likes to escalate pots, then a small bet is good, but I'd do less than half pot bet, anything that makes you look like a weak player betting an OK hand or on some sort of draw.

BluffTHIS! · #10 06-21-2006, 02:06 PM

Rempel,

You and I don't often agree, and many times Ribbo and I don't either. But he is correct that it is often correct to just weak lead. It would also be correct to sometimes just c/c that flop in a multiway pot OOP on a strong drawing board. You are not going to win as many pots here OOP not only when the flop offers so many draws, but also because you are more susceptible to being bluffed by aggressive players. That means you don't have to build big pots OOP all the time just for them to win when they hit or when they bluff.

And like Ribbo said, a weak lead will more often result in being raised than a pot bet, which means you can then reraise and price weak draws out and be left hopefully headsup with with a worse hand or a drawing hand that now has little in the way of implied odds if it hits and which can't then make you fold on the turn when you will be getting the correct price to fill because of the bloated pot size (this assumes normal stacks and not deeper ones).

And when you also occasionally make those weak leads with a moderate draw yourself that you wouldn't want to call a full pot bet with headsup, then they won't be as apt to price you out then for fear you have a big hand when they have only a moderate one.