1/2 QJ in BB

NoahSD · #1 06-19-2006, 09:20 AM

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
7 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets

Final Pot: 4.25 BB

I'm new to limit, so sorry if this is stupid. Comments on all streets please.

crunchy1 · #2 06-19-2006, 09:52 AM

The prototypical line in a situation like this where you're either way ahead or way behind is: check/call, check/call, bet.

Against some players I like a turn bet (when the player will shutdown betting after the flop but is loose enough to still call down with 55). If the button is loose enough and you can count on him to bet the turn you might even checkraise.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you can't provide a read on the button - there's a number of ways to play this hand. The only line I'd consider "wrong" in this hand is one that doesn't have you seeing showdown.

If you had a read on the button - post it and you'll get more specific responses.

jrocks · #3 06-19-2006, 10:14 AM

Your play is way too passive, even without the read.

I 3-bet PF and bet the flop. In a steal situation, he could have j9o... you really dont know, but you're likely to be ahead so you gotta punish him for trying to steal.

If you get raised on the flop, its not bad to fold, but at least with this play, you dont give his AJ a chance to catch that ace or 10... i mean who knows, he could even have a small pocket pair: the fact that you show no aggression means that you get no info.

crunchy1 · #4 06-19-2006, 10:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
the fact that you show no aggression means that you get no info.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not intentionally following you around to bash you from thread to thread but, this needs to be said:

Raising (being agressive) to gain information sucks.

Also, not every blind defense needs to be an agressive raising war. Letting the button (stealer) take the lead is just fine.

dannelito · #5 06-19-2006, 10:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The prototypical line in a situation like this where you're either way ahead or way behind is: check/call, check/call, bet.

Against some players I like a turn bet (when the player will shutdown betting after the flop but is loose enough to still call down with 55). If the button is loose enough and you can count on him to bet the turn you might even checkraise.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you can't provide a read on the button - there's a number of ways to play this hand. The only line I'd consider "wrong" in this hand is one that doesn't have you seeing showdown.

If you had a read on the button - post it and you'll get more specific responses.

[/ QUOTE ]

If we want to go to showdown then check/call, check/call, bet will get us there cheap. I would fold to a riverraise here is this incorrect? How about if we c/r flop and bet turn. What line should be taken if we are raised on turn. Call turnraise and fold to a riverbet, or just fold turn? I think I preferr the latter.

How often should we take the first line respectively the second line vs a button that raises frequently and less frequently?

feroder_zb · #6 06-19-2006, 10:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Your play is way too passive, even without the read.

I 3-bet PF and bet the flop. In a steal situation, he could have j9o... you really dont know, but you're likely to be ahead so you gotta punish him for trying to steal.

If you get raised on the flop, its not bad to fold, but at least with this play, you dont give his AJ a chance to catch that ace or 10... i mean who knows, he could even have a small pocket pair: the fact that you show no aggression means that you get no info.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aggressive play becomes useful in large/ multiway pots for protecting hands. Being more agressive in this SMALL HU pot is only going to accomplish one of two things:

If villain has a K, Hero is going to lose bets in a WB situation. -EV
If villain is making a pure bluff, he will be discouraged to continue betting on later streets. -EV
(You're not going to get villain to fold even a gutshot draw with flop aggression, especially if he thinks you're just trying to re-steal.)

This is the reason for the standard c/c to SD WA/WB play.

Here I think Hero is WA/WB erring on the WA side (villain is very possibly drawing to 3 A outs), so Hero's line makes a lot of sense. If villain raises the turn donk bet, call then c/c the river (unless river is an A, then the pot is probably small enough to c/f). Otherwise bet-call river (unless it is an A again, then probably b/f).

jrocks · #7 06-19-2006, 12:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your play is way too passive, even without the read.

I 3-bet PF and bet the flop. In a steal situation, he could have j9o... you really dont know, but you're likely to be ahead so you gotta punish him for trying to steal.

If you get raised on the flop, its not bad to fold, but at least with this play, you dont give his AJ a chance to catch that ace or 10... i mean who knows, he could even have a small pocket pair: the fact that you show no aggression means that you get no info.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aggressive play becomes useful in large/ multiway pots for protecting hands. Being more agressive in this SMALL HU pot is only going to accomplish one of two things:

If villain has a K, Hero is going to lose bets in a WB situation. -EV
If villain is making a pure bluff, he will be discouraged to continue betting on later streets. -EV
(You're not going to get villain to fold even a gutshot draw with flop aggression, especially if he thinks you're just trying to re-steal.)

This is the reason for the standard c/c to SD WA/WB play.

Here I think Hero is WA/WB erring on the WA side (villain is very possibly drawing to 3 A outs), so Hero's line makes a lot of sense. If villain raises the turn donk bet, call then c/c the river (unless river is an A, then the pot is probably small enough to c/f). Otherwise bet-call river (unless it is an A again, then probably b/f).

[/ QUOTE ]

I like your reply... wouldnt you say that it is worse to c/c, c/c, b (2.5-3 bets) if you are behind than if you were to be agressive on the flop and fold to a 3-bet and fold to a turn raise(1-2 bets)?

But you have a good point with the missing bets in the way ahead circumstance.

Crunchy,
Do you see it as important to keep the button scared to steal against you? I feel like if he played it passively, he might not have that effect, but with an aggro play, the button will start folding those j9o hands.

crunchy1 · #8 06-19-2006, 12:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Do you see it as important to keep the button scared to steal against you? I feel like if he played it passively, he might not have that effect, but with an aggro play, the button will start folding those j9o hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that I don't want a button stealing against me all the time. However, if I'm playing in the right kind of game - I'm not going to be in a position where I'm worrying about this very much.

Also, being super aggressive on the early streets is not the only way to scare off his steal attempts. The only type of player you're going to "scare off" are the ones that are paying attention. This type of player is going to be scared off by your correct passive play (which cost him the maximum - while you risked little) just as much as if you were to be very aggressive on the early streets.

Haupt_234 · #9 06-19-2006, 02:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Do you see it as important to keep the button scared to steal against you? I feel like if he played it passively, he might not have that effect, but with an aggro play, the button will start folding those j9o hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think playing the hand optimally, even if it is passively, will scare the opponent much more than unapplied aggression.

Haupt_234

naMruM · #10 06-19-2006, 05:18 PM

Actually, I don't think this is WA/WB. We are fare more likely to be ahead of the range of a typical button steal raise than behind. If he's bluffing or overplaying a worse hand, we want him to lead into us. If he's bluffing a naked or unimproved A, then he's likely not calling the bet part of the river bet-fold anyways. As this played out, I think you could just calling station check-call all the way down here. In a small pot, there is nothing wrong with letting him bluff off his A9o all the way. People let me do it all the time LOL.

Preflop you could 3-town, but I don't like it much in a full ring game. Poor showdown value with a Qh hand. Short-haned, with all the silly raises there, different story.