what games give the skilled player the greatest edge?

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Similar to my previous post about which games offer the greatest position advantage, I'd like to know which game offers the skilled player a greater edge over loose passive players.

Again I refer to fixed limit community card games (pineapple, courcheval, hold'em, etc.) only.

[Moose747]

Razz

[AlanBostick]

Omaha/8, by a country mile.

[tubasteve]

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Omaha/8, by a country mile.

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[infidel323]

The game least played at whatever location you are playing.

[benfranklin]

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Omaha/8, by a country mile.

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Many respected writers on O/8 disagree.

From a Mike Cappelletti article at Cardplayer:


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Is Omaha high-low a very skillful form of poker? Quite the contrary! Most Omaha high-low experts understand that their edge over good medium-level players is rather thin in loose Omaha high-low games. But both experts and medium-level Omaha high-low players have a considerable edge over the weaker players!

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I have heard the same thing from others, but don't have any of that in front of me right now. As a mere student of the game, I agree with Cappelletti. More than any other game, O/8 is a game of hand evaluation. That alone will make you a good player. In particular, post flop skills are no where near as important in O/8 as in HE, and that is where the expert usually has an edge.

Cappelletti again:

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Why do experts have less advantage in loose Omaha high-low games? In most forms of poker (including high Omaha, hold'em, and seven-card stud), much of the expert's edge results from the expert's ability to make accurate and sophisticated judgments. But in Omaha high-low, because of the game's bidirectional nature, many critical judgments must be based on ambiguous and less accurate information, such as what your various opponents are likely to be holding. Less accurate information yields less accurate judgments, and less skill advantage.

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[RiverDood]

All this is true, but OP's question was how to win big vs. a loose/passive table.

In Omaha/8, the extreme LP players will call down any two pair all the way to the river, no matter how many people are in the pot or what's going on with the board. FOUND MONEY!!

They will play the bottom straight to the river, no matter what's going on with the board, or how much raising there is. Fundamentally, they don't understand that a paired board changes everything. FOUND MONEY!!

They will play AAxx to the river, regardless of anything. Ditto for the worst possible boats. FOUND MONEY!!

They will play a counterfeited A2xx to the river, on the hope that is somehow might get uncounterfeited and become the nut low. FOUND MONEY!!

They will call any action with A2xx or A3xx or even 24xx on a flop with only one low card, on the hope that runner-runner lows will get them half the pot. Sometimes even with zero low cards. (Maybe hoping that they can buy a replacement card.)

The list goes on and on . . . There are so many 2nd best hands that look tempting and will keep them in forever. Ditto for strong starting hands that don't improve.

As the Omaha/8 tables get stronger, all of these criminally easy advantages start to disappear. But at low levels, every orbit offers wonderful chances to get paid.

By contrast, in holdem, the fish protect one another a bit by all sticking around with thin draws and improving their pot odds. They also make fewer egregious mistakes with the top starting hands -- because those don't go sour quite as often. Both games are very crushable, but in a couple hundred hands of Omaha/8, it's almost impossible to imagine a seriously annoying run of bad beats or dead cards. In holdem against weak players, that can occasionally happen.

[neverforgetlol]

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In particular, post flop skills are no where near as important in O/8 as in HE, and that is where the expert usually has an edge.

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that's absurd. understanding what you are drawing to, and the odds to get there, is the most important facet of the game

[benfranklin]

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In particular, post flop skills are no where near as important in O/8 as in HE, and that is where the expert usually has an edge.

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that's absurd. understanding what you are drawing to, and the odds to get there, is the most important facet of the game

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That is correct. And that is all determined preflop. Once you have determined that you have the cards and the odds, expert skill is not required to play postflop in a loose passive game, and will not greatly increase your edge.

Take a look at the expert skills discussed in TOP: semi-bluffing, getting a free card, slowplaying, check-raising, inducing a bluff, etc., etc. When is the last time you used, or saw, any of those in a loose, passive O/8 game?

My point is not that skilled players do not have a big edge over poor players in O/8. My point is that they have a bigger edge over more players in other games like HE and Omaha high, and that they do not have a big edge over good players in O/8.

[neverforgetlol]

what you are drawing to is determined preflop? are you high?

all of those concepts are used in LO8, espeically at the higher levels.