Why do I play worse live than online?

[SolidFish]

I have been playing poker for the past two years on the internet playing small limit ($2/$4 - $10/$20 short handed). I consider myself a solid online player and do pretty well (averaging $3k-4k/month). Anyway, I live in the suburbs of Philadelphia where the nearest legal poker room is in Atlantic City. The times I make it out there to play poker I recall having a losing session 80% of the time I go, which is about 2 times a month. There are so many factors that I think about for the reasoning of my losses but cant just figure out which it is...

I typically play the limit of 7.50/15 at the Trop which is all 2.50 chips where people truly lose concept of money. There are soo many preflop limper that it makes me sick! The swings are pretty big. It's like a live 2/4 game. The pots get huge but your premium hands will most likely get cracked. Should I move up in limit? What limit live plays like 5/10 on the internet? Im usually there on the weekends too.. is it the donkey tourists? Should I go on the weekdays and play with the regulars?

In addition, whenever I put in a session I play for over 12hrs which I would rarely do on the internet. Then when im stuck a few hundred by then I think to myself should I have played roullete betting the outside? Are my sessions too long? When should I pick up and be satisfied?

I play tight and I figure my patience will pay off but there are those people who must see action because they have ADD or something and have to feed their fix by seeing every flop (there are atleast 3 of these people/The type of people who will never raise but can call three bets cold). I feel like after seeing them win huge pots with mediocre hands I tend to loosen up by limping mid suited connectors and other mediocre hands in mid-late position. Should I not change my game up?

Do I just think I lose more live because I dont put in as much time live than I do on the internet? Is it in my head?
Anyone have any suggestions?

SolidFish

[dwedeking]

[ QUOTE ]
I feel like after seeing them win huge pots with mediocre hands I tend to loosen up by limping mid suited connectors and other mediocre hands in mid-late position. Should I not change my game up?

[/ QUOTE ]

This was a leak that I recently fixed. It's hard to sit there hour after hour folding hands. You start to see flops that would have hit your hands had you kept them. Then you watch the fish drag pots playing crap hands. Next thing you know your limping in with suited connectors UTG because you know everyone will just limp along. You'll catch part of it and since your in early position you'll limp along again and then get raised. Now you have 3 SB's in with a very marginal hand. And the downward chip stack spiral starts. You need to be strict on playing hands in position and staying tight for the whole session. Also learn to let TPTK go when it's fairly obvious that your dead in the water because someone's sooooted unconnected hand just filled up the flush despite your attempts to keep draws out of the hand.

I have a spread sheet in Excel where I track my session results. I go through and think about the session the next day and figure out what I played right and wrong (when I am not emotionally invested in the session). Most of my losing sessions are due to the above leak. I start out tight and then get into the "swing" of the game and play too many hands.

Also watch those fish that are dragging pots because they hit miracle hands on the turn and the river. You'll notice that they usually leave the table a few hours later busted.

[winky51]

1: Variance is much higher live than online. If you are playing 4 SH tables online thats 400 hands per hours compared to 35-40 hands per hour at a live table.

2: Fail to adjust your play to the table. You are so used to better players online that you don't adjust your play to the live worse players.

3: Bored. You are so used to online you get bored and loosen up in spots you should, like dwedeking said below.

4: Know when to get up because the right players are sitting in the wrong positions or your image is shot. I have gone 12 hours vs the worst players I have ever seen not winning a pot. Then the next day sitting at a table with bad to fair with 3 good players and winning winning winning. Realize when your psychological state is not right to play.

Thats what I can tell you. If you are young like in early 20's then #1 and #3 can really mess up your play. Youth means less control of emotions and you get bored easier.

Where can I find 10/20 SH in A.C. BTW? Thats what I normally play and whenever there is SH games I rule!

[relayerdave]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I feel like after seeing them win huge pots with mediocre hands I tend to loosen up by limping mid suited connectors and other mediocre hands in mid-late position. Should I not change my game up?

[/ QUOTE ]

This was a leak that I recently fixed. It's hard to sit there hour after hour folding hands. You start to see flops that would have hit your hands had you kept them. Then you watch the fish drag pots playing crap hands. Next thing you know your limping in with suited connectors UTG because you know everyone will just limp along. You'll catch part of it and since your in early position you'll limp along again and then get raised. Now you have 3 SB's in with a very marginal hand. And the downward chip stack spiral starts. You need to be strict on playing hands in position and staying tight for the whole session. Also learn to let TPTK go when it's fairly obvious that your dead in the water because someone's sooooted unconnected hand just filled up the flush despite your attempts to keep draws out of the hand.

I have a spread sheet in Excel where I track my session results. I go through and think about the session the next day and figure out what I played right and wrong (when I am not emotionally invested in the session). Most of my losing sessions are due to the above leak. I start out tight and then get into the "swing" of the game and play too many hands.

Also watch those fish that are dragging pots because they hit miracle hands on the turn and the river. You'll notice that they usually leave the table a few hours later busted.

[/ QUOTE ]

This advice is extremely sound, IMO. In fact, I'm going to keep it handy and read it every time before I go to the tables...

[Matt Williams]

Also, keep in mind the rake and all the tipping you do. You play less hands and tip more. I've played the pink game and it is an AWESOME game if you play tight ABC poker.

[SolidFish]

Ive never seen a true short handed 10-20 table in AC unless it is a breaking table. I do know though that there are 10-20 games at the borg, taj, hilton(so im told), and occasionally trop, havent been to other poker rooms much.

[Louie Landale]

Good hands in tight holdem are not always the same as good hands in loose holdem. Suited hands and small pairs go way up, unsuited hands go down. You need to be playing all pairs and all Axs from any position and seriously upgrade your other suited hands. Big suited connectors like KQs are great hands even for a raise.

The flop creates a larger variety of situations then you are used to. With 4 or more players in, usually there are 2 hands that are both favorites, the best pair and the best draw. Don't be afraid to cap the flop with just a big flush draw.

With a set or better, don't be looking under the bridge for the troll. Yes, sometimes someone has a bigger set or a bigger flush or makes a bigger full house, but by the time you figure that out the pot is usually to big to fold. There are of course exceptions, usually when Mother Theresa raises you; just make sure its obvious and not just what you are used to doing.

In tight holdem you typically risk one bet to win one call, and notions of inducing bluffs and setting up future plays bla bla bla come to mind. In loose holdem its usually 3 calls and that overshadows most everything else. That reality translates to this: if it looks like your pair is good on the flop then bet the turn. If it looks like your pair is best on the turn then bet the river. When something in the back of your mind says "only an idiot would call me" ... well, that's true... and all the more reason to bet.

With a good hand you should routinely, and I do mean routinely, build a pot and show it down and take your chances. You'll win more than your fair share of pots but unlike tight holdem you won't know which ones. That's the way it is.

- Louie

[Dromar]

The way you describe the game, Small Stakes Hold'em would probably be a pretty good read.

[huggybear96]

Maybe you should consider playing NL live instead of Limit.

[trentk268]

Another online player that feels his elevated skill level is responsible for his losses in live games.

If you're really that tight, why would you loosen up in a game full of fish? To borrow a phrase from Doyle Brunson, you're gonna have to get out a hammer and saw and put together a hand.

Are you keeping track of the pot in a live game? It's easy to keep track online, but you've gotta keep track in your head live. In limit, keeping track of this stuff is crucial.

You also may be running into "schooling", with multiple fish outs (2,3 or 4 chasers and/or calling stations staying in) making your big pair much more vulnerable than when playing heads up or 3 players in. Pocket rockets can turn into the second best hand easily in those situations.

I think the thing I see in online players having trouble adjusting to B&M play is patience (lack of) and inattention to tells- both read and given to your opponents. I would pay especially close attention to stuff you never have to think ablout online- like glancing at your chips or what you're doing with your hands.

Live play is not harder, it's just different. Stay patient and tight, and force the fish to showdown with good cards and you'll wind up with a win rate roughly equal to your internet rate.