low limit blues -- comments needed

[clair]

FierceLion7 wrote:
[ QUOTE ]

So the Donks stay in. That pisses folks off because they get sucked out on a lot. Yet why do the good players fold? They do it because the odds are not good and in the long run they will lose money even if they suck out on someone in this pot.

So when a Donk sucks out on you by making a bad call, he is actually losing money. I know it is difficult to think of this abstract idea when some guy who played like a moron is raking in the pot but that is how it is.



[/ QUOTE ]

I have been studying and playing online (.25/.50) for about 2 months now. After trying many types of games, I find Stud and Stud H/L to be what I think is "my game." I've been playing them exclusively for about 2 wks. now, and have settled on plain Stud.)

I was interested in the quote above (from the Good Books for Stud thread) because I have been "playing by the book" with discipline and care, reading cards and hands with quite a bit of skill. In the last few days I have had a significant run of what I would call bad luck but maybe it's not. Hence this post.

I've had either garbage starters or great starters which went absolutely nowhere. Almost all of the latter I folded on fourth street. The few which I went to the river with and made (high straight, flush, etc.) were all beaten. On each occasion I noticed the awful starters of the hands by which I was beaten.

If the times I saw 5th st. via a free card because everyone checked were subtracted from my stats, I probably only paid to get to 5th st. about 2% of the time. Over a period of 30 hrs. of playing I watched my money drain away.

At the same time, I consistently watched one player who would enter the game with $10 enter 9 out of 10 hands, go to the river with 8 of these and rack up $10 or $15 in about 20 minutes and then leave. A few of his hands were reasonable starters, most were what I would call garbage.

I am close to reaching the conclusion that playing "by the book" in low limit does not increase your bankroll. But, I'm in here, asking for second opinions. I do understand that the books tend to assume that everyone at the table is playing "good poker", i.e., they will fold if they have nothing on 4th or 5th. (Unless of course they have a scary board and use it to bluff with.) But if you are at tables where 5 out of 8 go to 6th st. everytime and 50 out of 150 hands you have paid a dime to see fourth st., (I'm making these numbers up.) and maybe 10 times you've gone to 5th st., your bankroll at the table is way, way down via these calls and the antes.

In short, you have no money, only the solace of having played "good poker". This somehow doesn't seem to be a winning strategy to me. In other words, those around you are playing "bad poker" and collectively, they are winning and you are losing. The books don't address this.

Perhaps the more experienced players on this forum can. I sure hope so. There's obviously a lesson in all of this, and I sure want to learn it!

Many thanks in advance for any comments and advice. I love the game, I want to keep playing. (I have the Roy West and Ray Zee books and have ordered SCSFAP.)

[PJS]

For as start, when the term "in the long run" is used, it is certainly meant as more than a couple of days or a couple of weeks.

Keep reading the good advice in the books, keep working hard on your game, and it should all come together. It just takes time.

[MRBAA]

You must loosen up your starting hand selection considerably and also read hands very differently than suggested in SSFAP or Chip Reese's section of SuperSystem or Roy West.

For example, against players who play almost any hand it means almost nothing if they pair their door card. So if you've got JJ and an idiot pairs his 7 in the door, folding often is not right.

You can chase more, too. If you have a three flush and two overcards to the board on fourth and it's one small bet to go you can peel (it's marginal, but possibly profitable in uber loose games where you are the best player).

Don't be afraid to see fourth and even fifth street with a lot of hands when there are no raises, and don't be afraid to fold when you don't get lucky. It's a horrible play to call against one tight aggressive player heads up with pocket fours. It's much better to call against five loose gooses who will pay when you hit hidden trips.

If you do call on fifth, be prepared to at least seriously consider calling the river. Folks who start with nothing often end with nothing, and pots get big fast with four and five players staying for even one big bet street. You only have to win a couple of pots with your unimproved pair of 9s to make calling profitable.

Be assured, these games aren't just beatable, they are crushable. I paid for a good chunk of my new guestroom with winnings from 2-4 stud and he.

[jon_1van]

whats the ante size in your .25/.50 game?

this could be very very important.

In the low limit party games they make the ante HUGE so that they can rake the games. This means that almost ANY hand is playable heads up.

[MRBAA]

Very true, and even in lower ante structures, when 4-6 players routinely call the bring in, the game effectively becomes higher ante -- not in terms of your contribution but in terms of your present and implied odds. I play in a live 1-5/1-10 on the river game where the dealer antes $1 for the whole table. But it plays like a game with a .50 ante, since at least four players virtually always call the bring in.

[Nick_Foxx]

you probably shouldn't be folding on 4th street so much... really

for example if you start with a quality 3-flush in a multi-way pot, you should probably take 1 off even if you brick on 4th street, unless action dictates otherwise

[sparkywowo]

well, if you are just having a run of bad cards thats one thing... how do you do when you hit big hands?

you should win a "small fortune" when you fill up and on the rare occasions when you hit quads. getting straights and flushes or worse beaten is routine in this kind of game. you can "stink" for 2000 hands, and then "run like crazy" for the next 400.

[RiverJammer1]

From what I understand from Ray Zee, in a hi/lo game you want to tighten up instead of loosen up. If you loosen up in a hi/lo then you will get crushed, because of the jamming from the good players with a lock to one side.

But with one way games the opposite becomes true. You need to loosen up for the stud.

Also try sticking with the hand on 4th once in a while, especially when last to call only one bet with live cards.

[clair]

Thanks for the replies on this post. The loosening up is what I had been tempted to do, but being new at this, was hesitant to do so on my own say so. As to the antes, I play on Poker Stars so for the .25/.50 game it's .05, which as I understand it, is not bad at all.

As to what happens with good hands, the three that I had, 2 high straights and 1 queen high flush were all beaten at the river. So, this, coupled with antes and bring-ins over 5-600 hands made me post my question here.

I'm now gun-shy, of course -- a disappearing bankroll does that! lol Anyway, I thank you all for your advice and will certainly be taking it when I screw up my courage (and bankroll) to take the plunge again. I really like this game and find it so much more interesting than Hold'em.

cheers to all of you

[clair]

Okay gang, here's the report: (remember I'm gun shy right now)

Stud: .04/.08 $2.20 > $3.30
.02/.04 $1.60 > $2.09
.10/.20 $4.00 > $4.47
St.H/L.02/.04 $2.50 > $2.82

Total made: $2.38

I know it doesn't look like much, but for me, it's significant to have done this. Have taken your advice and it seems to be working.

Many thanks. (And, I didn't cook the books!)