Flop and turn help please

sean c · #1 01-16-2006, 11:49 PM

Party 1/2 6 max. Villian has been very tight or card dead in the short time we have been at the table seems aggressive when involved in a hand and my small sample read is he is probably tag.

Pre flop(5 handed): Folds to me otb or co can't remember and i raise A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], sb calls and bb calls.

Flop(3 players 6sb): A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
bb bets, i raise, sb folds, bb 3-bets, i cap and bb calls.

Turn(2 players 7bb): K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
bb checks and i?

Anybody play the flop any dif?

Turn plan? Bet/fold, bet/call or check and why?

What about the river assuming it is a blank?

Hobbs. · #2 01-17-2006, 12:12 AM

I play the flop the same. The turn is a great example of checking behind with outs IMO.

sean c · #3 01-17-2006, 12:20 AM

Hey Hobbs thanks. The problem was i felt like since this was a blind defense that i was ahead here a fair amount of the time and i really didn't want to give a free card/miss a value bet but i can't fold to a c/r so i was torn.

tyler_cracker · #4 01-17-2006, 12:23 AM

Since it's HU, you could call the 3-bet planning to raise the turn. Capping is okay too.

I think you have to bet. A TAG could 3-bet this flop with a lot of hands you beat, especially if he puts you on a steal: Ax, Qx, QT, especially if any of those contain a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. We can't give a free card to a lone [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

We have to call a check/raise getting 10:1 on our boat draw.

So there you go: bet/call. Re-evaluate based on the turn action and river card.

tyler_cracker · #5 01-17-2006, 12:26 AM

Hey Hobbs, i don't like checking behind "with outs" since we could easily have the best hand.

Hobbs. · #6 01-17-2006, 12:29 AM

the only hand we are really worried about giving a free card to is A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] x. I guess you could argue that there are enough combos of that hand to warrent a turn bet/call, but when you think of all the other combo hands that a TAG will go crazy on the flop I think we are actually behind on the turn a fair amount of the time. Either way it is very close and hard to say what the most profitable play is on the turn.

bweiser8311962 · #7 01-17-2006, 12:33 AM

you have 4 cards to a straight and 3 to a flush ... do you really think you are ahead on the turn? i check KNOWING that they expect me to bet so they can check raise. i've just gotten myself a free card for the river and a chance to improve.

Magellan · #8 01-17-2006, 01:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
you have 4 cards to a straight and 3 to a flush ... do you really think you are ahead on the turn? i check KNOWING that they expect me to bet so they can check raise. i've just gotten myself a free card for the river and a chance to improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds a bit MUBSish. Based on the read, you would expect villain to have reraised PF with a premium hand. His call may have been a defense against what he thought was a steal attempt. So, he may have a J or the flush, but it is more likely he doesn't. We likely have 4 outs to beat anything (RF and SF excepted) he has if we're behind. It's not impossible that villain is trying to bully us out of the pot on the scary flop, and if so you would almost expect the c/r on the turn to continue the illusion. I like a bet/3-bet on the turn, re-evaluate on the river, but we're calling down at the very least.

bweiser8311962 · #9 01-17-2006, 02:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you have 4 cards to a straight and 3 to a flush ... do you really think you are ahead on the turn? i check KNOWING that they expect me to bet so they can check raise. i've just gotten myself a free card for the river and a chance to improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds a bit MUBSish. Based on the read, you would expect villain to have reraised PF with a premium hand. His call may have been a defense against what he thought was a steal attempt. So, he may have a J or the flush, but it is more likely he doesn't. We likely have 4 outs to beat anything (RF and SF excepted) he has if we're behind. It's not impossible that villain is trying to bully us out of the pot on the scary flop, and if so you would almost expect the c/r on the turn to continue the illusion. I like a bet/3-bet on the turn, re-evaluate on the river, but we're calling down at the very least.

[/ QUOTE ]

do you really think KJ is that unrealistic? i wouldn't 3-bet with it out of the blinds preflop. i'm out of position. i call. and i do a dance on that flop.

Magellan · #10 01-17-2006, 09:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
do you really think KJ is that unrealistic?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all, I'm just not ready to give credit for it based on flop action alone. I guess this is where a good read is important, but I wouldn't put it past a thinking TAG to try bullying us on this flop. If he's not slowing down after a bet/3-bet on the turn, different story.

Just an example, but lets say that villain considers that 77-99 is in our raising range here, or that we're attempting to steal with not much at all, I would've thought that flop could easily tempt him to go nuts. Maybe he has AX. Also, if he did flop the straight and found that we were happy to come along for 3 bets, he might prefer going to war on the turn. I doubt he's too concerned about the possible flush draw when it's HU.

Still, I've never played 6 max or even at the 1/2 limit, so I'm happy to have my thinking corrected here [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].