#1
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Slowplaying in 5CD
I was wondering about slowplaying in 5CD and how effective it is. My impression is that you should not slowplay, and in fact if you're not raise-opening then you shouldn't be in the pot at all. I find this to be very useful and profitable.
My question though was about pat hands. Sometimes I'll be dealt a straight, I bet, and both blinds fold. The normally profitiable hand is gone. If I check, maybe one of the blinds can muster up trips or 2Pair in the draw, and will call me, sometimes. However, when this happens, sometimes a blind will make a flush, miracle draw or the 1 in 15 boat to 2Pair. This is a BIG money loser. Should I be raise-opening with pat hands? The other question is when you have the nuts, let's say Quads. You're dealth quads, and if you bet you could win the blinds or at least slow play down a lot. If you check, someone could draw to a flush or boat, bet you out, and you'd win. In this case, it seems that slow playing won't cost you anything because the odds of someone drawing to higher quads or a straight-flush are really low. However, the blind is just the place to do it. Any opinions on slowplaying pat hands? |
#2
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Re: Slowplaying in 5CD
I almost never slowplay in 5CD. I usually open-raise anyway, so limping would probably look suspicuos. I don't think that many of your opponents are going to pay you off too often after you stand pat in an unraised pot. If you have a really loose opponent, he might call you before the draw anyway with a pair of shorts or something. So unless you have a good reason to believe that your opponents will put you on a bluff, I don't think there's much value to limping in with a pat hand. Perhaps you can occasionally do this with quads and draw one card, but I still think that you get more value if you bet both before and after the draw (unless perhaps you're known as a tight raiser). One play I might consider is to smooth call a raiser with quads or possibly a pat full house if I think this will bring more people in behind me. I'm hoping that they will make second-best hands (straights, flushes or a smaller full house). I don't really think I have been in that situation yet, though. If there's a maniac in the game that raises most of the pots, I might limp in with the intention of reraising when the action gets back to me.
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#3
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Re: Slowplaying in 5CD
If you hold a straight, you shouldn't bother slowplaying
since these hands occasionally lose to a miracle draw from one of the blinds. Thus, the smallest pat hand you should consider limping in with is a pat flush. There are also some weaker hands that you can consider limping in with such as AAA or KKKAx, but much of this will depend on how the blinds play; e.g., there is no point EVER limping in if the BB will defend with ANY pair or ANY draw. These are the key considerations to think about when you have a hand you are thinking of limping in with: 1) How strong is your hand (relative to the position you are opening from) 2) How often will the small blind complete with a weak hand such as AKxyz, AQxyz or a gutshot 3) How often the big blind will defend with a weak hand 4) How often someone will coldcall with a medium pair or better or a flush draw 5) Whether you will get action if you limp in as opposed to when you raise. 6) Whether you hold many key cards in your hand I actually think that in most situations, you should think about 2) first because many players will complete (as they often should) with any pair or even AK. 3) is also quite important as if you know that the BB will defend with shorts or a draw, you know you will be getting a full small bet at least about half the time. On the other hand, when the big blind is quite decent and won't defend with many hands, 2) becomes by far the biggest factor. Although it is true that 4) can be a big factor when you are precisely utg and there are two players behind you that will call raises cold a lot with weak hands, this situation won't occur very often in practice. The ideal kind of trapping hand is quads as you are drawing one and some players may think you have a busted draw or may just be curious to look you up. Nevertheless, if you are utg, you should strongly consider NOT trapping as there is some chance you will get action from one of your four opponents and occasionally you will get reraised. On the other hand, if your hand doesn't have many key cards such as aces or kings, you should strongly consider limping in and hope that someone with KK or AA will make it two bets. Thus, if you held QQQ22 utg, this would be normally a very good hand to limp in with whereas if you held KKKAA, even though it is very unlikely to be beat, you may want to just open raise anyway with this although there is merit to consider limping if the small blind will often complete. The idea to limp in is to maximize your postdraw action. When you have a pat hand, you won't get much action from anyone unless they have a flush or better. Thus, you may as well open raise with anything less than an ace-high flush so when you do open limp, most of the complete hands that your opponents will make will be second best. Thus, if you are in the cutoff with a pat full house or better that doesn't have any key cards (no aces or kings), you should normally open with a call as that will yield on average a greater expectation than if you open raised at the typical table you play at unless the big blind will defend with just about anything. On the button, you would rather play all your big hands fast because from that spot, many of your opponents may suspect that you are weak or that you are just trying to steal the blinds on a semibluff or worse. You will find the blinds will defend with all sorts of hands when you open raise from the button, so you may as well play all your big hands fast unless you think that the small blind will often complete but not call 1.5 small bets cold with many hands. |
#4
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Re: Slowplaying in 5CD
what hand are you going to limp in with that isnt a monster hand ? - my issue is visualising the positions where its profitable to limp in but not open raise
if you find a big fat slow play and someone hits something that beats it (that wouldnt of played for a raise) always assume your an idiot when you steal the blinds with quads remember the hands where you stole them with 88 and be happy that you got richer stripsqueez - chickenhawk |
#5
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Re: Slowplaying in 5CD
Sound advice, thanks.
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#6
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Re: Slowplaying in 5CD
I don't think it is clever to slowplay in a game whith just two betting rounds. Unless someone else is betting like a maniac all the time and you are 100% sure he will bet against your monster if you check, you are losing money.
But how could you be 100% sure? |
#7
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Re: Slowplaying in 5CD
I think slowplaying in 5cd is stupid, usually. After you draw most people put you on a hand. If you stand pat more than likly you will get no action post draw.
So where is the money coming from? Predraw...raise the hell out of it. The only way I might slow play is if say the guy before me raises and i think i can get more money in the pot by just calling and hoping the others to follow will call. Usually it's raise and stand pat and take down the pot. The reason I dont slow play quads is because you have to draw 1 or 0, either way post draw you wont get much action. They will put usually put you on a straight draw or flush draw if you limp and take 1. |
#8
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Re: Slowplaying in 5CD
You should never limp with a pat straight or small flush. Too much miracle junk happens to wipe you out. If you raise, get a caller who draws 1 to fours up and fills up to beat your 9-high flush, dems the breaks.
I strongly disagree with some of the remarks here that it's rarely or never good to slowplay with any pat hand. Once you rap pat on the draw, you've killed a lot of action you could've hoped to receive postdraw. Therefore, you must do what's possible predraw to maximize your hand. By limping, you not only invite other players to draw cheaply to hands that have almost zero chance of overtaking yours, but you're also encourage those holding strong second-best hands to raise. Not only do you have the chance to make it 3, but lesser players will put you on some sort of play, and they'll STILL call you down post draw. Obviously, you have to mix up your play somewhat so that when you do limp predraw, you're not telegraphing that you have a monster. I'll let you figure out what strategy to use there. |
#9
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Re: Slowplaying in 5CD
First of all, if you are playing at most tables that are 3-6
or bigger, you probably should simply open raise since most of the players will be reasonable, and you will often simply just arouse the suspicion of many of your opponents that you limped in with a monster. So let's get that out of the way first; assume you are playing 2-4 or smaller (or a bigger limit where most of your opponents play as if you were in a 1-2 game!). At the lower limits, especially at 1-2, you will be MUCH BETTER OFF limping in from utg and the cutoff with good pat hands, such as an ace high flush or better AS LONG AS the big blind does not defend with shorts or hands such as gutshot draws and cathops. IF the big blind defends with many hands, you are better off open raising rather than calling. If you are able to run a simple Monte Carlo simulation with reasonable assumptions about how your opponents will play, it will be clear that much of your extra equity when you limp in will come from the small blind completing the bet. Also, if some of your opponents will limp in after you with hands such as TT, JJ or QQ whereas they would fold if you open raised, the decision won't even be close! Of course, even with a hand as big as an ace-high flush, you will sometimes lose to a miracle draw, but that's more than compensated by the two points that you mentioned that should be convincing: 1) Allowing players to enter the pot with virtually no chance of winning. 2) Reraising players with hands such as KK, AA or two pairs (NOT trips; if you KNEW someone had trips, you would wish that you open raised, but it's rare compared to someone holding KK, AA or two pairs less than kings up), thereby increasing your +EV before the draw. Now, if you are beat before the draw, you were losing a bunch of chips in any case, since the class of pat hands that you were intending to limp open with are hard to get away from. OTHER LIMPING HANDS ------------------- Therefore, if you do decide to occasionally limp in with a pat hand such as a good flush or a boat (or even better), you have to decide on the type of hands that you limp in with that are NOT that good but worth calling. If you are utg, and you have a straight flush draw, you may decide to limp unless you think there is a reasonable chance you will just win the blinds with a raise. Also, if you are utg and have a hand such as Ah Qh Jh Jd 2h (a pair with a flush draw), it's too good to fold and you may not want to raise (although that may often be the best play) so you can only call. With a higher pair or lower pair and a good flush draw, calling will not usually be the best play. It's true that some one pair hands that are not also an ace high flush draw are borderline, and some players do limp in with them but at most tables it's still better adopting a raise or fold approach WITH THOSE type of hands. For example, a hand such as AKJJx (utg) is better to open raise with than to limp in with, although both plays are +EV. Also, with hands such as AAAxy, and KKKAx, you can open limp with them, as long as you have some good reasons to do so. Needless to say, you also prefer to open limp with quads unless both blinds are going to defend with almost any hand! |
#10
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Re: Slowplaying in 5CD
I dont know if I agree with that. I think that the raise is the best way to get money in the pot, once you stand pat all your action will go away. I think the chance of limp reraising might be the option but it depends on your posistion. Obviously the latter then better on both ends, pre and post. However I will try limping with my next couple of pat hands and see how it goes.
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