Push or stop&go??

Toro · #1 06-09-2006, 11:58 AM

Last nite, pokerstars $30nlhe tourney, 600+ starters. We are down to 36 and itm. $88 for 36th and $4897 for 1st. I have no read on this guy but I have to make a move right now. So do you push all-in preflop here or call and push after the flop?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1200 (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button (t47077)
Toro85 (t12600)
BB (t38027)
UTG (t43510)
MP1 (t124040)
MP2 (t19321)
CO (t18874)

Preflop: Toro85 is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 folds, Button raises to t3600,

Toro85 : Push or stop and go??

AceLuby · #2 06-09-2006, 12:04 PM

Why do you have to make a move right now? I'd fold, but since you want to make a move I'd open push, only because this looks like a std button raise trying to pick up the pot.

seke2 · #3 06-09-2006, 12:05 PM

Out of those options, I like the stop and go here.

You have pretty minimal preflop fold equity even against 2 random cards up against the big stack (he'll be calling ~9k to win ~18k which he's almost certainly doing on a huge stack against your short stack). You could definitely pick up some fold equity if the flop is really bad, especially if he's just stealing in position.

jclin · #4 06-09-2006, 12:08 PM

If you don't think he will fold PF, then SNG is only way to go. Seems like you were leaning towards SNG no matter what.

AceLuby · #5 06-09-2006, 12:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Out of those options, I like the stop and go here.

You have pretty minimal preflop fold equity even against 2 random cards up against the big stack (he'll be calling ~9k to win ~18k which he's almost certainly doing on a huge stack against your short stack). You could definitely pick up some fold equity if the flop is really bad, especially if he's just stealing in position.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if the flop is really bad for us (2/3 of the time it completely misses)? Are we still doing a SNG? I think the only way he's folding, either way, is if he thought he has no outs / dominated. PF raise doesn't mean anything from him and if you push he could easily fold because he's making this move w/ 23o. I know people make this move all the time, this site advocates the std button raise. If you have to make a stand I think I make it PF. But what the hell do I know, I suck.

jcm4ccc · #6 06-09-2006, 12:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would probably fold, but if you are going to make a stand, I would push. You definitely have FE here.

seke2 · #7 06-09-2006, 12:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Out of those options, I like the stop and go here.

You have pretty minimal preflop fold equity even against 2 random cards up against the big stack (he'll be calling ~9k to win ~18k which he's almost certainly doing on a huge stack against your short stack). You could definitely pick up some fold equity if the flop is really bad, especially if he's just stealing in position.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if the flop is really bad for us (2/3 of the time it completely misses)? Are we still doing a SNG? I think the only way he's folding, either way, is if he thought he has no outs / dominated. PF raise doesn't mean anything from him and if you push he could easily fold because he's making this move w/ 23o. I know people make this move all the time, this site advocates the std button raise. If you have to make a stand I think I make it PF. But what the hell do I know, I suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's no flop decision in a stop and go. You have made your flop decison to push before the flop is dealt. The only time I don't follow through and open-push a flop when I am intending to stop and go is when I hit the flop so amazingly hard that I don't care if more cards come off and I want to make sure I get the rest of the chips in, in which case I'd give the other guy a chance to cbet. Like, in this case, if I flopped the nut straight on a rainbow board or flopped a full house, I'd check the flop, and push any other flop if I was running the stop and go.

If the flop comes A96 or something, hell yes I'm pushing. Or 432 in some other suit, hell yes I'm pushing. You're representing the flop hit you, and hoping the other guy missed it whether or not you missed it.

AceLuby · #8 06-09-2006, 12:22 PM

Why don't you think you have FE PF? This looks like a standard button raise.

seke2 · #9 06-09-2006, 12:27 PM

See previous post.

Hero's push will still offer roughly 2:1 odds to Villain, and Villain has a huge stack which will probably make him more likely to call with a very wide range since he won't mind gambling for a chunk of his stack. Hero is pretty short here so his range is fairly wide and there's no way that Villain is worse than 2:1 against that range.

On the other hand, there are plenty of flops where Villain will miss and will happily fold looking at 2:1 odds on Hero's push.

CybrPunk · #10 06-09-2006, 12:35 PM

Given the two options I like the stop n' go over the preflop push. Pushing preflop villain is getting 2:1 and should, theoretically, call with a very wide range of hands. Hero's preflop fold equity just isn't quite there. He has a much better chance of picking up the pot post-flop.

To answer an earlier posters question about what happens on certain flops... the answer is that it doesn't matter. Hero is pushing ANY flop because it's the best way to maximize his fold equity. That's the whole premise behind the play. Hands like AK/AQ that don't fold preflop are more likely to fold on a whiffed flop and hands like 55-99 are more likely to fold on a flop with overcards. These are all hands that definitely do not fold preflop getting 2:1.

Given that hero just paid both the small and big blind, I'm personally a fan of folding over both of OPs options and would rather try to pick another spot in the next orbit.