Down 14 buyins in 2800 hands at 50NL 6max. Bad cards or bad play?

Spaded · #1 06-07-2006, 04:38 AM

That big slide came after a healthy 2.6BB/100 over 11K hands last week at $50NL 6max. Ever since I cashed out $500 from party it has been a huge downslide.

Some PT stats:
Good Week: VPIP=23.2% PFR=9.3% Won Showdown=53.5% Agression=2.82
Bad Week: VPIP=22.0% PFR=9.0% Won Showdown=52.3% Agression=3.28

I think I might be making too many continuation bets or something. I like to raise hands like AJ from 2 off the button, sometimes hands like A3o on the button with no limpers, someone from late position usually calls my semi-decent hand like KJ and one of two things happen: I either bet on the turn and fold the river when they call with junk, or I check the flop and fold to the floater's bet. I usually fold to any raises, mostly because my hands are middle pair or TPGK and I am OOP.

A couple hands:
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $.50BB (6 handed)

BB ($49.50)
UTG ($72.80)
MP ($32.54)
Hero ($45.75)
Button ($121.56)
SB ($11.25)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
2 folds, Hero raises to $2, Button calls $2, 2 folds.

Flop: ($4.75) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $3, Button calls $3.

Turn: ($10.75) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $6, Button calls $6.

River: ($22.75) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: $22.75

Hero has Js Ac (one pair, eights).
Button has 9h 3c (two pair, eights and threes).
Outcome: Button wins $22.75.

FullTiltPoker Game #695031306: Table Sherwood (6 max) - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 3:49:16 ET - 2006/06/07
Seat 1: x ($53.40)
Seat 2: Hero ($60)
Seat 3: x ($17.05)
Seat 4: villain ($94.15)
Seat 5: x ($65.45)
Seat 6: x ($75.60)

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [Ah 9c]
3 folds, Hero raises to $2, 1 folds, villain calls $1.50
*** FLOP *** [5c As Qs]
villain bets $2, Hero raises to $5, villain calls $3
*** TURN *** [5c As Qs] [4s]
villain checks, Hero bets $9, villain calls $9
*** RIVER *** [5c As Qs 4s] [9s]
villain bets $15, Hero folds
Uncalled bet of $15 returned to villain
villain mucks
villain wins the pot ($30.65)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $32.25 | Rake $1.60
Board: [5c As Qs 4s 9s]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($61.15)
BB ($71.83)
Hero ($58.35)
Button ($48.70)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
Hero raises to $2, 1 fold, SB (poster) calls $1.75, BB calls $1.50.

Flop: ($6) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $4, SB calls $4, BB folds.

Turn: ($14) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $10, SB calls $10.

River: ($34) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $9, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $43

So am I strong for betting on early streets, or weak from folding a $9 river bet? If I'm weak, how about this hand...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($14.10)
MP ($51.85)
CO ($39.40)
Button ($38.03)
Hero ($92.86)
BB ($79.85)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.50. Hero posts a blind of $0.25.
2 folds, CO (poster) checks, Button calls $0.50, Hero (poster) raises to $2.75, 1 fold, CO folds, Button calls $2.50.

Flop: ($7) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $5, Button raises to $10, Hero calls $5.

Turn: ($27) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button calls $25.03 (All-In), Hero calls $25.03.

River: ($77.06) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $77.06

Hero has Jc Jd (two pair, jacks and fives).
Button has Qc 5c (three of a kind, fives).
Outcome: Button wins $77.06.

A bad river call, I guess. Should have folded on the flop after the minraise that is so common at these levels.

Skuzzy · #2 06-07-2006, 05:37 AM

Hand 1:
If villain is capable of calling a raise with 93o then calling down with bottom pair you should have all his money in 30 hands. Play all your marginal hits the same way - but value bet the river too [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] dont cbet anymore. This hand tells you all you need to know about him to make him your peronal ATM.

Hand 2:
A9o sux from EP. On the flop if you think he is donk betting with the draw make a decent raise. I check behind on the turn, if he was drawing at the flush he just hit, if he has an Ace he is likely ahead.

Hand 3:
I don't mind this. I think you see a small/mid pair or x9 minraise here lots to test a possible cbet from AK/AQ/KQ type hands. Calling the turn push isnt bad either - whats more likely given the action and a standard villain, he has one of the two fives or he has another pair or a 9? If I knew before hand that he will call a raise with Qxs type junk then I would increase the number of hands he plays for a raise that include a five - in general i don't assume that this is the case.

jii · #3 06-07-2006, 05:56 AM

Hand 1:

Dont' know the reasoning behind the second barrell, I would check here. I agree that now you know a lot about this villain. Don't bet him with nothing(CBs of course), do not slowplay ever!

Hand 2:

Your flop raise is pathetic. Basically you raise $3 on $8 pot! He has all the odds in the world to call.

Hand 3:

This is the perfect spot to check turn in position. Reasoning behind this can be found e.g. from Pooh-Bah post by EMcWilliams.

Check_The_Nuts · #4 06-07-2006, 05:58 AM

I don't raise A3o in the button. I think it has no value whatsoever, even if it hits a straight its still not great. I'd rather play 23s....Then at least you can figure no one has your 2 or 3 pegged...

Think about it. Flop comes 2 4 5 for your flopped straight. Wouldn't it be better to have 3/6 and flop the same straight? At least then if the flop comes 66x or 33x u can assume your probably good. However if it goes AAx you have no idea where your at...(people will call PFR with all kinds of stupid aces)...Also if you hit a flop with 36Q, no one is gunna guess you have two pair 63. However, two pair on an Axy board is quite common....

I think your getting caught raising crap too much. Thats why people are calling you with stupid stuff (excluding 93o, guy is an idiot)....

If you disagree with any of this please elaborate...

jii · #5 06-07-2006, 06:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you disagree with any of this please elaborate...

[/ QUOTE ]

A3o is a good hand to steal with. Against random hand:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 55.8446 % 53.86% 01.99% { A3o }
Hand 2: 44.1554 % 42.17% 01.99% { random }

Ax has showdown value and does well e.g. against drawing hands that are calling CBs.

edit: Dude!! You have over 500 posts in one month!

edit2: Ok, two months... It's still a lot.

FoldEqu1ty · #6 06-07-2006, 06:36 AM

Dude, 14 buyins is a LOT, and in only one of the hands you have show us did you get stacked. What else are you losing with? Show us more hands where you got stacked for a full buyin.

Your second barrels are absolute spews. They need to be both strong, and made to opponents who are capable of folding, neither of which is true here. IMHO You shouldn't start making them until you are a proven solid winner (>7PTBB/100) over at least 20k hands.

Your turn play in all three hands is very not goot IMO. Check the flop in both hands 1 and 2. In hand 3, the flop minraise should make you extremely wary, and you should be folding to anything more than a half pot bet on the turn, or just folding right there.

dtemp · #7 06-07-2006, 06:54 AM

Hand 1: I more than likely check the turn. The board is not draw heavy and he is probably just calling with some part of the board (just saw the results, apparently he is). Check the turn, catch an ace or jack and punish him for the free card by checking to induce a bluff. Fold if he bets the turn. If you are going to go for a turn bluff you have to bet closer to potsize. Remember at this level people usually see money in absolute terms. He sees it as a 6 dollar bet, not as 2/3 pot bet.

Hand 2: I check the turn to keep the pot small and induce a river bluff. Use your position. The bet probably just makes him fold lower pairs and has a very low chance of him folding a jack. As played I have trouble folding getting nearly 5-1. But there aren't a lot of worse hands he will bet.

Hand 3: Fold turn unless you've seen him get out of hand previously.

Finally, don't raise A3 if you can't play it post flop. There's nothing wrong with tightening up until you get your post flop play down.

Edit: Damn quick reply. I was talking to op not foldequity.

kslghost · #8 06-07-2006, 07:00 AM

I'm going to have to agree with previous poster. These hands seem almost inconsequential compared to 14 buyins. We need to see bloody death hands, particularly ones where you get stacked. Unless you literally bleed money away like this constantly.

And 14 buyins in 2800 hands means you're losing a buyin every 200 hands. I think it's likely a combination of bad luck and going too far and too deep with hands you shouldn't be. (typical i suppose).

Wools · #9 06-07-2006, 07:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
And 14 buyins in 2800 hands means you're losing a buyin every 200 hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Further, he mentioned that he was 2.ptbb/100 over his last 11k. I mean, that's positive, so it's good, but that's breakeven play. I agree that OP needs to post hands he's stacking off with.

Part of improving is accepting your errors and learning from them; if you dont post ugly hands, you cant get advice on ugly hands. How many tables are you playing at a time? Further, what are your $25NL numbers like? Were you a solid winner there? Have you considered moving back down? $700 is a lot to drop $50 at a time.

Poker Fool · #10 06-07-2006, 08:03 AM

OP, I dont think 2.6BB/100 is exactly crushing a game.

To be losing this many buy ins this quick there needs to be some real horror hands, they do come up but they are sets over sets, quads beating your full houses etc etc.

Basically it should be obvious where it has all gone wrong (and indeed you can replay these hands in your head as you try to sleep, so horrible were the beats).

If those dont exist, it is much more likely to be bad play.