when a verbal bet is confused....

jlocdog · #1 05-27-2006, 12:37 AM

So I deal poker and one of the dealers at my casino got into an interesting dillema which brought major controversy. Please extend your thought on how our floor man should have dealt with this situation.

We have one of those tables with the white line around to signify the "betting line". There were 2 players left by the turn and one guy says all in and pushes his chips in. $196 more. The other guy says "call". The dealer asks, call? He says yes call. (Note the dealer is one of the best we have. She is however from Taiwan and has a very thick accent. I mention this only because of the possible confusion in their verball exchange??) He then proceeds to flip over his AA while the other guy flips over his made straight. The dealer burns and turns the river and then announces that the straight wins. The AA guy then says "No, I said fold". He NEVER put his chips in the middle.

Now I am wondering, what to do in this situation. The dealer (which our casino makes a point to back the dealer as much as possible) asked him twice if he calls. Not once. He flips his cards face up in front of him, not mucking them or even tossing them torwards the muck face up. (Granted it is common for people who fold AA before the river to flip them up to show "how awsome they are"). He seemed like a novice player but even so if the river went his way we felt as though he was able to take credit for the hand with everything laid out as is. Also if he is a novice would he really fold AA?

What is to be done here? With no movement of the chips, the floorman can't actually physically touch them. Nor can he make him pay, can he? The ruling was that with everything evaluated as how it went down, he was given an ultimatum. Either he pays the $196 dollars or he picks up and leaves. The guy grabbed his chips and took off. Now obviously he is banned from our poker room but the question still stands as to what to do here? Verbal bets are binding in this gentlemans game of ours but what if there is a controversey over what that verbal bet was?

My 2 cents is that when I am in the box and a player announces all in or calls an allin, I make them put "some" chips in the middle signifying there bet. Opponents to that idea is that it can cause confusion. If you are UTG lets say and say all in but only throw out a stack, others not hearing the verbal from the player or the dealer for whatever reason then might think the "one stack" is the bet.

Please give me some insight into this with possible solutions so we do not have thias happen again. Obviously if we ban the verbal bet then we can avoid confusion forever and there would be no controversy. But verbal bets were put in place for primarily big stack poker and avoiding the process of physically putting in ten billion chips just to have everyone fold. Saves time and effort. So as far as I can see verbal bets will not be dismissed from live poker anytime soon.

On a side note the winner in the hand was severly pissed.

Banks2334 · #2 05-27-2006, 12:58 AM

Your floorman is a moron. Verbal bets are binding and all of the action indicated that the player called. He should have been forced to pay. Why didn't people at the table say something?

jlocdog · #3 05-27-2006, 01:07 AM

Easy there big guy. I/we understand that verbal bets are binding. The first issue is the actual verbal bet. Dealler says call, while players says fold. So the actual verbal bet is in question. Also, like I said, the chips were never moved into the middle so I don't think we can technically tough them.

As for the other players being asked, that is the wrong thing to do. It is npot the other players responsibility to add there 2 cents into controversial decisions. It is not right to expect them to say there thought as it could affect the way others treat them at the table. If players want to come forward then that is always welcome but to ask them puts unwanted pressure on an innocent third party.

Number27 · #4 05-27-2006, 01:11 AM

If you're not going to ask the people at the table then you have to accept whatever the dealer heard him say. If not then I could make verbal all-in calls all day and then just lie and say the dealer misheard me. In this instance if the dealer heard him say call then that is binding and all of the evidence supports that he did indeed call. Ship it.

bwana devil · #5 05-27-2006, 01:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The first issue is the actual verbal bet. Dealler says call, while players says fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

your original post:

The other guy says "call". The dealer asks, call? He says yes call.

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

jlocdog · #6 05-27-2006, 01:21 AM

I know. That is how the verbal transaction went down as far as the dealer heard it. When she asked the second time, he said "yes". Sorry for that confusion.

The major issue though is in the fact of how do you "ship it". The bet was not physically made by him and so we as the floorman/dealer/casino, I don't believe can touch his money.

Number27 · #7 05-27-2006, 01:27 AM

Verbal bets are binding at the poker table. Whether he physically touched his chips or not is irrelevant. At the very least you have the dealer and the opponent who heard him call; and if you need to you can confirm the story with the other players at the table.

jlocdog · #8 05-27-2006, 01:56 AM

Nobody at the table fessed up to anything. They all played the dumb card either not wanting to get involved or honestly didn't hear. As for the other player, he was just reacting to the dealer saying "ok call".

Again though, the issue is that he didn't move his chips into the middle and therefore we cannot touch his chips. this point must be understood as everyone consistently keeps saying verbal bets are binding, ship it and so on. With poker being a gentlemans game and allowing verbal bets, with dealers not enforcing the players to move chips in (even a stack to represent) how can we make him give up his chips? Technically a player can say "call" and then watch the river and say he said "fold" when he sees he lost and if chips arn't put in the middle, there is nothing that can be done besides tell the player he must leave and never come back. Now obviously poker players don't care to barred from there local casino plus they have integrity and the likes to just pay up 99.9% of the time. But here we have a total joker who chose the former.

I guess I posted this to see if this has happenned in anyones casino ever and what was the resolution.

bwana devil · #9 05-27-2006, 02:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Again though, the issue is that he didn't move his chips into the middle and therefore we cannot touch his chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

id post this in the B&M forum to get an educated response to this statement. i would imagine the gaming commission can intervene if need be.

bwana

Tregaan · #10 05-27-2006, 09:10 AM

funny thing is this guy goes home thinking he is on to something and will try to do the same in another cardroom...

He then proceeds to get his @ss kicked if he tries to do it with the wrong people [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]